Chi vive il sogno?

Join us here for some fun chit chat, or share your opinions on rumours and gossip in the news. Beginners and advanced Italian speakers are all welcome!
maelström

Post by maelström » Wed Jan 26, 2011 5:16 pm

Luca84 wrote:Maelstorm.......e basta dai.
Scusa ma perché continui a ribattere? Hai detto che non vuoi discutere e continui a postare? E poi per dire cosa? "E basta dai" cosa? Se hai qualcosa di utile ed interessante da dire a questa ragazza che ha posto una domanda intelligente fallo; se vuoi contestare quel che io ho scritto, fallo; non puoi dire che non vuoi discutere e poi continui a scrivere rispostine insensate. Non devi mica scrivere per forza.

Roby
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Post by Roby » Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:18 pm

Amy....

If it is your dream to visit or to live in Italia one day ...return..... Everyone has his or her opinions on the state of Italia at the moment. We all have our opinions on the state of our respective countries as well.
All I can say is weigh each person's opinion a bit and then realize that there are pluses and minuses to everything.

At the moment the cost of living is very high. Then you have to take into account the exchange rate and the economy of the entire world.

Seven weeks is really not a lot of time to experience the live style in Italy. However, plan another trip to Italy if this is what you want to do. GO FOR IT!

You are young and you have your whole life ahead of you. Spend a summer traveling through Italia if it a possibility for you. Meet the people , the kids your age etc... make friends...

I wish you the best on fulfilling your dream.
Roby
"Per raro che sia, il vero amore e' meno raro della vera amicizia."

"As rare as true love is, it is not as rare as true friendship."
- François de La Rochefoucauld

eliteglory
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Post by eliteglory » Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:37 pm

Grazie, Roby! I'll probably be taking your advice as soon as I possibly (and financially) can and will find some way, any way, to go back to Italy for a while and see for myself.

maelström e Luca, debating on this thread is fine, it's good practice for me to read it all - I've never gotten the chance to read anything like it before. And while I'll take both of your opinions to heart, Roby is right when he says that everyone has his or her own opinion of Italy. You both pretty clearly view the situation in pretty different ways, but that doesn't mean that either of you is less informed than the other. You just see it differently; I'm sure this is the case for a lot of people living in Italy. I know that, here in the US, the country is divided over just about everything (and, in fact, some things you mentioned, maelström, are problems here as well).

So I'll just eventually make my way over there, form my own opinion, and hopefully learn how to have a disagreement with someone in a civil way. But thanks for your help!

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-Luca-
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Post by -Luca- » Wed Jan 26, 2011 7:01 pm

eliteglory wrote:
So I'll just eventually make my way over there, form my own opinion, and hopefully learn how to have a disagreement with someone in a civil way.
Hi eliteglory :)

Hai detto una cosa saggia : il mondo è fatto di persone diverse, con opinioni diverse, punti di vista diversi, modi di pensare altrettanto diversi.
E' naturale quindi che ci possano essere piccole controversie. L'importante è discutere sempre in maniera civile per far si che la discussione porti ad un insegnamento ad ambo le parti..

Come ha detto anche Roby, ti consiglio di sentire tutte le opinioni possibili, è trarne una TUA personale, che poi probabilmente l'esperienza ti potrà confermare o meno :)

L'Italia è una paese vivibile per alcune cose, ed invivibile per altre. ( come tutti i paesi..no?)

Sarà una bella esperienza per te capire di persona le dinamiche di questo paese.

Non credere a chi dice che l'Italia sia peggio di altri paesi.
Ogni paese infatti ha i suoi lati positivi e quelli negativi.
I problemi li hanno tutti infatti.

Non si può vedere tutto positivo, ma neanche tutto negativo.

Insomma, tirando le somme, ti auguro veramente con tutto il cuore di vivere una bella esperienza nella tua prossima visita in Italia.
Poi ci dirai che ti è sembrata :)

Ciaoooooo :)
Italians don't know what Caesar salad is !!

eliteglory
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Post by eliteglory » Wed Jan 26, 2011 7:40 pm

Grazie di nuovo, Luca. Hai ragione, tutti i paesi hanno i loro problemi. Ogni persona deve decidere se i negativi sono piu` importanti dei positivi, o viceversa (e` vero per quasi tutte le decisioni di vita, si?). E questo e` possibile solamente se una persona vede per se stesso. Ma, apprezzo tutti i consigli ed informazioni - mi danno un'idea di cui aspettarmi.

E non credero` mai che l'Italia sia il peggiore paese. Forse non e` il migliore al momento, ma non sembra terribile. Non vorrei andare in Italia se avessi pensato cosi.

Grazie Luca :D

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Ember
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Re: Chi vive il sogno?

Post by Ember » Wed Jan 26, 2011 7:53 pm

Ho letto solo velocemente la discussione per mancanza di tempo.

Amo l'Italia e la odio, entrambe le cose con tutto il cuore. Non so quale predomina... forse l'odio perchè quando vedi una cosa che ami distruggersi con le sue stesse mani, ti viene naturale!
*** homo sum: humani nihil a me alienum puto ***

maelström

Post by maelström » Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:44 pm

Roby wrote:We all have our opinions on the state of our respective countries as well.
No, Roby, I want to stress this point because it's important for the person who opened this thread and actually asked "Chi abita in Italia? Ti piace? Ci sono alcuni problemi?": I am Italian, born and raised here, and I am very well informed about my country. The ones contained in my messages were not opinions. I reported specific data, which you are free to check and/or question if you want, but you must have the means to do that. I don't accept Luca's way to question the content of my messages by saying that I am exaggerating, aggravating, that clearly I am a pessimist or that I feel some resentment toward my country. That's total nonsense. What I reported in my messages is not my vision of Italy; it is a specific, real situation. Again, you are free to prove me wrong, but you have to do it on a logical, documented, meaningful, rational base. I cannot see any trace of that in Luca's messages. You cannot just "throw the stone and hide your arm"; you cannot state "You are wrong, but I am not going to tell you why". That's not the right way to discuss - I mean seriously - any matter.

Now, all above said, let me give you some evidences. I stated in my message that Italy is among the European countries on the verge of a bankrupt. Not a great news for anyone interested in Economics. You can find tons of Google results searching "Italia rischio bancarotta". Let me report just the following link, found among some other thousands: http://www.agoravox.it/?page=article&id_article=8150
The following is the map of the public debt of all countries in the world: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... ld_map.PNG
Look at the color of Italy. If you know what the derogatory acronym PIIGS means, you should also know that one of those I's stands just for "Italy" (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/PIGS). Who rules the country, at the moment, is seriously concerned that the auctions of government bonds are deserted: "La Banca D'Italia comunica l'esito dei collocamenti supplementari della seconda tranche dei Buoni ordinari del Tesoro semestrali, scadenza 29/10/2010, disposti dal Ministero del Tesoro e riservati agli operatori "specialisti". A fronte di un'offerta di 950 mln di euro non sono pervenute richieste da parte degli specialisti."

About civil rights: according to the International Gay and Lesbian Association, Italy is among the most omophobic countries in Europe. You can find some evidence here: http://www.cafebabel.co.uk/article/3150 ... vanni.html and here The European Fundamental Rights Agency has reported in their survey: "in six additional Member States (Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Cyprus, Hungary, Italy and Malta), calls for improving the rights of LGBT persons have invariably been met with negative responses from some politicians and representatives of religious institutions or groups". About women's rights: besides the almost "natural" gap between women and men in this country, see all the discussion happened in the latest years about the laws n.40 and n.194, the RU486 abortion treatment, and so on. About life and death: the sad cases of Piergiorgio Welby and Eluana Englaro are two clear evidences of how difficult is, in this country, to decide what to do of your own body, once you get seriously ill. About freedom of expression: Italy has been often classified as "paese semilibero": http://blog.libero.it/ilgabbianoJL/7004301.html. For further evidence, look at the House of Freedom surveys. There have been, in the latest months, many political decisions that have seriously jeopardized freedom of expression and freedom of press, in Italy.

About corruption: you only need to take a look at the "World map index of perception of corruption": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:World ... n_2010.svg

About tax evasion: just one among thousand Google results: http://njuice.com/Evasione-fiscale-101- ... a-nella-Ue

About unemployment: http://www.lavoroediritti.com/2010/07/i ... segna-292/

Should I go on? Talking about the Church (the devastating influence of 1929's Concordato, between Italy's government and the Holy See, on what should be the temporal power of a country and the lay nature of a state, the fraudolent way they receive funds through the shameful "8 per mille", the dominating influence of some parallel organizations such as Opus Dei, Comunione e Liberazione, on our economic life? etc.. etc... etc...).

Should I really talk about the well-known social and economic gap between north and south of the country and the dangerousness of such political parties as the Northern League, formed by homophobic, racist and xenophobic men and women, who hope for a secession and, from time to time, have even threatened a civil war in order to defend their damaging policy?

Should I go on? Talking about crime organizations, the huge influence they have on everyday life of companies and small businessmen, especially in the south? The strong entanglments with local administrators? Just a reference: read what Saviano wrote in his "Gomorrah". Another reference, among some thousand Google results: http://italiadallestero.info/archives/7452

Now, please tell me: where are the "opinions"?

Italy is among the worst countries in Europe. It is proved by international surveys of independent organizations. We may love our country but we have to accept the truth.

maelström

Post by maelström » Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:46 pm

eliteglory wrote:non sembra terribile. Non vorrei andare in Italia se avessi pensato cosi.
Dimentichi un particolare: non conosci l'Italia sufficientemente bene. Non c'è niente di male in questo. Spero davvero che tu non voglia basare i tuoi soggiorni qui sull'affermazione "In Italia c'è tanta pizza e brava gente".

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-Luca-
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Post by -Luca- » Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:22 pm

Maelstrom,

se credi che l'Italia sia così malmessa come tu la descrivi, perchè ci abiti ancora !?

Ho fatto una domanda stupida??????
Italians don't know what Caesar salad is !!

maelström

Post by maelström » Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:27 pm

Luca84 wrote:se credi che l'Italia sia così malmessa come tu la descrivi, perchè ci abiti ancora !?
L'Italia è oggettivamente malmessa. Non sono io a descriverla così.
Sì, la tua domanda è stupida, perché il fatto che una persona sottolinei ciò che non va nel proprio paese, non implica necessariamente che debba lasciarlo; può restarci e sforzarsi di farlo funzionare un po' meglio, dando il proprio contributo.

eliteglory
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Post by eliteglory » Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:28 pm

Thank you maelström, but apparently I was unclear when I started this thread: I wanted opinions on what it's like to live in Italy day-to-day. I get that politics, the economy, etc. are a part of that, but I don't want facts about those or about homophobia, debt, corruption, and unemployment. As you have shown, anyone can pretty easily find that information with a simple Google search. It's a bit harder to search for what people feel and think about Italy. I actually want opinions, not facts.

And perhaps I was wrong in my Italian in my first message when I started this thread - but I actually do not want to move to Italy. The most I would probably ever stay at a time is a year, but that is highly unlikely unless I get a chance to study there. I want to go to Italy in the future for a bit of time - I want to become better at speaking Italian by immersion, among other reasons. I suppose I shouldn't have said "Chi vuole vivere in Italia come me" - I don't know the proper way to ask in Italian, "Who would like to live in Italy one day like me (although probably never will, but who wants to dream about it anyway)?" - but that is what I meant, and I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.

I asked who lives in Italy, what it's like, and if there are problems because I know that I cannot get a true sense of life without living there, so hearing opinions from people who do there is as close as I can get.
Spero davvero che tu non voglia basare i tuoi soggiorni qui sull'affermazione "In Italia c'è tanta pizza e brava gente".
While I was only in Italy for a very short period of time, I did have bad food (including pizza), and met some rude people. So I do not believe that it's all pizza and good people, and I hope you don't think I'm ignorant enough to think that. I'm sure a lot of Americans do think that way, but I hope that, after four years of taking countless Italian classes at my university, my professors gave me a better sense of culture and reality than that.

I am very sorry that I wasn't clear, and I'm sorry to you two, Roby and Luca, because you seem to understand what I meant but this was turned into a political and social discussion anyway.

maelström

Post by maelström » Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:00 pm

eliteglory wrote:I wanted opinions on what it's like to live in Italy day-to-day. I get that politics, the economy, etc. are a part of that, but I don't want facts about those or about homophobia, debt, corruption, and unemployment.
I mentioned those matters only generally, speaking about the country; and then I answered your questions by telling you that you should probably come here and stay for a while. I also suggested you to read our main newspapers to get in touch with Italy's everyday life. I think that I was quite informative. On the other hand, it's you who asked if there were any problems here. I described them in a boring detail, only when other people had a bad reaction to my words. You may well ignore what I wrote in my latest long and boring message and focus on opinions only. Opinions, however, are always based on facts. You cannot ask an Italian to tell you how living in Italy is, in his/her opinion. It doesn't make much sense. You may not believe it, but the facts I mentioned, as I already wrote you in a previous message, do influence Italy's everyday life, though they may not influence a tourist's life. You can ask a foreigner, not a native, what he or she "feels and thinks" about Italy. Well, if you want, I can rephrase what I wrote in my messages, by summing it up as follows: "In my opinion, living in Italy is not that amusing". If you find it informative, good. Your question ("Chi vuole vivere in Italia come me") made me think that you would like to live here permanently ("vivere in Italia"), but I already gave you some advice also about a possible short/long stay.
eliteglory wrote:I hope you don't think I'm ignorant enough to think that.
Of course I don't. I was indeed referring to someone else.

eliteglory
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Post by eliteglory » Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:19 pm

Forget it. I don't need a condescending attitude when I was just trying to meet people on here. I tried hard to be understanding towards you, but perhaps I am just an ignorant child like you think.

Thank you Luca and Roby, I appreciate all of your comments. I enjoyed my day or so being active up until now, and I was incredibly excited to practice my Italian and meet great new people. I'm glad I at least got to speak with you two. So ciao, it was a pleasure to meet you but I probably won't be posting again.

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-Luca-
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Post by -Luca- » Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:20 pm

maelström wrote:
eliteglory wrote:I hope you don't think I'm ignorant enough to think that.
Of course I don't. I was indeed referring to someone else.
Thanks Maelstrom :) sei molto gentile a darmi dell'ignorante ...
eliteglory wrote: Thank you Luca and Roby, I appreciate all of your comments. I enjoyed my day or so being active up until now, and I was incredibly excited to practice my Italian and meet great new people. I'm glad I at least got to speak with you two. So ciao, it was a pleasure to meet you but I probably won't be posting again.
Ciao elitglory,

Altough the discussion on this thread, this is a friendly forum so please keep writing to us whenever you want and you need :) It's a pleasure writing to you, so please don't abandone the forum :) we could help each other with the language, and with the knowledge of our respective cultures ..

un abbraccio !! :)
Italians don't know what Caesar salad is !!

maelström

Post by maelström » Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:36 pm

eliteglory wrote:I am just an ignorant child like you think.
An ignorant child? I never wrote that, nor ever thought that. I am not in the least interested in labeling other people gratuitously. Indeed, I did not. I am here to help. In this thread, all I was trying to do was to be of help to you (as I think I did in my previous two replies to you - also given your appreciative answers). The problem, however, is that you want opinions, not facts. So, let's suppose I gave you my opinion: "Living in Italy may not be a pleasant experience". You would probably ask the reason of my opinion, in return, so please, tell me how should I explain my opinion then, if not with facts?

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