Libri di autori italiani

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Re: Libri di autori italiani

Postby calum » Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:05 pm

Quintus wrote:If you have a teacher from Rome, you could ask him:

«Un fiorentino mi ha chiesto di chiederti (o chiederle, forse?) perchè dite sempre "Va a magna' er sapone" o anche "Va a magna' 'a montagnaccia der sapone tua"? Che cos'è questa faccenda del "sapone"? Avete problemi col sapone a Roma?»


Ciao Quintus,

ieri sera ho recitato al mio insegnante le frasi che hai scritto sopra. Lui è scoppiato a ridere poi ha detto (con una pronuncia fiorentina): "Mi garba!"

We say: se non ti posso prendere un po' in giro, che amico sei?


Appunto!

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Re: Libri di autori italiani

Postby Quintus » Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:55 pm

Nice!! I thought you was joking when you said you would ask him that. Did he say "mi garba", indeed? Well. So..., yes, "mi garba" is our, ahem..., say..., way for "mi piace". Sob! One lazy way more, in addition to the darn hoha hola matter. One by one our bad habits are being unmasked in the far Glasgow too. By the way our Roman friend clearly used it to create a diversion. His being silent about the soap did not pass unobserved. OK, OK, going to carefully search the net for the Roman Soap Connection and unveil it to the world! 8)

O tempora o mores! :wink: :D
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Re: Libri di autori italiani

Postby calum » Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:35 am

He said it was the Roman version of saying to someone "vai a quel paese". You're right, he didn't explain the soap reference and I look forward to learning what it's all about.

Do you mind if I make a few minor corrections to your post?

Nice!! I thought you (was) were joking when you said you would ask him that. Did he say "mi garba", indeed? Well. So..., yes, "mi garba" is our, ahem..., let's say..., way for "mi piace". Sob! One more lazy way (more), in addition to the darn hoha hola matter. One by one our bad habits are being unmasked in (the far) far off Glasgow too. By the way our Roman friend clearly used it to create a diversion. His being silent about the soap did not pass unobserved. OK, OK, I'm going to carefully search the net for the Roman Soap Connection and unveil it to the world!


regards,
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Re: Libri di autori italiani

Postby Quintus » Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:16 pm

Ehhh sì, grazie! Prende decisamente un altro aspetto. Lo "you was", poi, è una delle specialità della casa. Interessante anche che "nella lontana Glasgow" è "in far off Glasgow". Sotto questo punto di vista le grammatiche sono un po' un incubo: mancano di informazioni veramente vitali e mi fanno spesso venire in mente quei corsi d'inglese a base di "the pen is on the table". Non che io sia forte in grammatica, ma neanche certe grammatiche sono al massimo nell'aiutarmi a scrivere in inglese in tempi umanamente accettabili, senza costringermi a sfogliare decine e decine di pagine, intendo.

Visto che ci sono, ho tuttavia una domanda veloce. Ho intenzionalmente omesso "let's" da "let's say" e "I'm" da "I'm going" perché avevo visto su internet che un certo numero di nativi li omettono in frasi simili alla mia. I messaggi di questi nativi non mi davano l'impressione di essere scritti in modo sgrammaticato, ma piuttosto, diciamo, in modo familiare, immediato. Per esempio, in chiusura di un messaggio dove si parla della necessità di verificare qualcosa: "Going to check it out!". Quindi le mie omissioni erano un tentativo di riusare quelle espressioni. Perciò la domanda è: sono del tutto errate o sono ammissibili in qualche contesto?

Mi rendo conto che usare correttamente certe espressioni al di fuori del contesto originale è arduo e che solo un nativo dovrebbe permetterselo, ma tant'è, è solo un gioco. Senza quei due errori ne sarebbero comunque venuti fuori altri due! :D

Grazie in anticipo!

Quintus

-
P.S.
- Seguo con molto interesse il discorso sull'articolo (e qualche altro) ma ho bisogno di tempo. Qui la situazione è complessa.

- Per gli stranieri: "mi garba" è sì un modo fiorentino, e anche un po' troppo familiare, di dire "mi piace", ma è anche molto antico. Lo usava a volte mio nonno, e poi non l'ho più sentito.
Se a volte io stesso scrivo espressioni dialettali, non preoccupatevi: se avete intenzione di venire in italia, non c'è bisogno nè di impararle nè di capirle. Modi di dire (o idiomi, se preferite), abbreviazioni strane, parole inusitate, espressioni colorite, è tutto sotto controllo. Si usano se si vogliono usare, e nessuno lo fa con gli stranieri a meno che non ne sia richiesto o quando le circostanze lo rendano inopportuno. E questo vale anche per le innumerevoli espressioni di tutte le altre regioni. Se inserisco qualcuna di queste espressioni nei miei messaggi su Impariamo non è soltanto per mettere un pò di colore in argomenti che potrebbero risultare noiosi, ma soprattutto perché ho sempre dovuto constatare che molte persone sono curiose di idiomi e modi di dire particolari. E non potrebbe essere altrimenti: anche la gente di qui è curiosa dei linguaggi fuori dai nostri confini. Le parole non sono simboli neri su uno schermo bianco o onde che si propagano nel mezzo elastico chiamato aria, sono ben altro.

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Re: Libri di autori italiani

Postby calum » Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:37 pm

Visto che ci sono, ho tuttavia una domanda veloce. Ho intenzionalmente omesso "let's" da "let's say" e "I'm" da "I'm going" perché avevo visto su internet che un certo numero di nativi li omettono in frasi simili alla mia. I messaggi di questi nativi non mi davano l'impressione di essere scritti in modo sgrammaticato, ma piuttosto, diciamo, in modo familiare, immediato. Per esempio, in chiusura di un messaggio dove si parla della necessità di verificare qualcosa: "Going to check it out!". Quindi le mie omissioni erano un tentativo di riusare quelle espressioni. Perciò la domanda è: sono del tutto errate o sono ammissibili in qualche contesto?



I thought so. Let me take the second point first, since it's the easier of the two.

This type of writing is very casual, informal and usually seen in places like chat rooms where brevity is preferred over clarity. It is an abbreviated style of writing that can be understood provided the context is clear, as it was in your case. Your diary would be a perfect example of where this would be acceptable because of the lack of space given to write appointments.

7 Feb: Returning book to library
8 Feb: Collecting parcel from post office
9 Feb: Driving to Naples (Benvenuti al Sud!)

Similarly, in exchanging texts (SMS messages) or in chat rooms, where the pace of the exchange is faster than with emails or forum posts, this is standard practice.

Person A: Have you seen the latest Lady Gaga video on youtube?
Person B: Checking it out now!

In all of the above examples, the missing component ~I am~ is implied and understood.

You'll also see it in advertising:

"Feeling tired? Try the new drink from Red Bull" ('Are you' is implied)


Apart from that omission of "I am", the rest of your message was written in a more standard style so the sudden use of such a casual form stood out, seemed out of place, that is why I pointed it out. It's just a matter of style, you'll be understood provided the context is clear.


say v let's say

I'm not a grammar teacher so I've been struggling to think of the best way to explain this. Let me think about it a little longer and I'll get back to you. If anyone else has a view on this (Peter, Joe?) please chip in!



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Re: Libri di autori italiani

Postby Peter » Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:56 pm

calum wrote:say v let's say

I'm not a grammar teacher so I've been struggling to think of the best way to explain this. Let me think about it a little longer and I'll get back to you. If anyone else has a view on this (Peter, Joe?) please chip in!


Unless I'm misunderstanding things in relation to the context, then my feeling is that you can use both say and let's say. Often the first is simply a contraction of the second. My own preference, for what it's worth, is for let's say.

They are often used when hypothethising:

"Say we don't recover all the money, will that really matter?"
"Let's say we don't recover all the money, will that really matter?"

Neither usage is wrong, secondo me, and so it really comes down to personal preference. :)
A presto


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Re: Libri di autori italiani

Postby calum » Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:00 pm

Peter wrote:
Neither usage is wrong, secondo me, and so it really comes down to personal preference. :)


Yes, in your examples it's clear that the two are interchangeable but Quintus's sentence doesn't lend itself to that and has an awkward feel to it.


So..., yes, "mi garba" is our, ahem..., say..., way for "mi piace".
So..., yes, "mi garba" is our, ahem..., let's say..., way for "mi piace".


Doesn't the second sentence sound more natural?

Sorry to be so vague about this, Quintus, but as Peter says, it's a question of style rather than grammar so is more difficult to explain.


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Re: Libri di autori italiani

Postby Peter » Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:46 pm

calum wrote:Yes, in your examples it's clear that the two are interchangeable but Quintus's sentence doesn't lend itself to that and has an awkward feel to it.


So..., yes, "mi garba" is our, ahem..., say..., way for "mi piace".
So..., yes, "mi garba" is our, ahem..., let's say..., way for "mi piace".


Doesn't the second sentence sound more natural?



Yes, it does, Calum. In this case it is much better than just say!
A presto


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Re: Libri di autori italiani

Postby Quintus » Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:52 am

Far from me the idea of arguing with native speakers, but the difference must be so small that Collins couldn't see it either:

«11 - You can use say or let's say when you mention something as an example.
To see the problem here more clearly, let's look at a different biological system, say, an acorn...»

http://dictionary.reverso.net/english-synonyms/say

Also, I am a bit confused as to "in the far Glasgow" versus "in far off Glasgow". According to the WordReference dictionary, "far off" is an adverb, not an adjective:

http://www.wordreference.com/iten/lontano

So, yesterday, before posting my message, having no other chance to know if "in the far Glasgow" was correct, I googled (with Advanced Search):

in the far "in the far"

and I found 1,050,000,000 results. For example:

«Play Nicole Adventures in the Far East and other flash games...»
«They were in the far South on a regular visit to buy fruit...»
«But Sevilla have huge misses and likelihood think about draw in the far Moscow...»
And so forth.

Time permitting, I always search the net for parts of my sentences, just to check out if they are at least minimally comprehensible. For example, as to "one more way" vs. "one way more", couldn't it be that "one more way" translates to "un altro modo" and "one way more" is instead for "un modo ancora"? I don't know it, I'm just asking. Both these constructions have a lot of occurrences on Google. E.g., see "one more kiss" vs. "one kiss more", although the former is more common.

Vi ringrazio per esservi preoccupati del mio stile, ma, come ho cercato di spiegare in altre occasioni, non ho uno stile. Il mio stile è l'unione di alcuni stili, di volta in volta diversi, tra quelli di milioni di persone che lasciano una traccia scritta dei loro pensieri su Google. Questo mi permette di trovare subito, e possibilmente memorizzare, espressioni altrimenti impossibili da ricostruire. Allo stesso tempo mi evita terribili incomprensioni. Per uno che ha studiato francese a scuola e non ha mai scambiato due parole in inglese con chicchessìa qualunque altro metodo di apprendimento è, a mio avviso, pura illusione.

Regards,
Quintus

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Re: Libri di autori italiani

Postby calum » Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:11 am

Hi Quintus,

I don't want to appear to be overly critical here. The suggestions I made are very small adjustments to make the phrases sound more natural and I don't want to give the impression that I am painstakingly dissecting your use of English. Your English is remarkably good, and the better it becomes, the finer the points of adjustment become. That is the case here.

Far from me the idea of arguing with native speakers, but the difference must be so small that Collins couldn't see it either:

«11 - You can use say or let's say when you mention something as an example.
To see the problem here more clearly, let's look at a different biological system, say, an acorn...»


In general, yes, you can use either. What Collins doesn't address is when one has a better flow, sound, than the other.


Also, I am a bit confused as to "in the far Glasgow" versus "in far off Glasgow". According to the WordReference dictionary, "far off" is an adverb, not an adjective:


You are correct! I made a mistake in omitting the hyphen from the phrase; it should have read 'far-off', which is an adjective.
http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictio ... sh/far-off?


So, yesterday, before posting my message, having no other chance to know if "in the far Glasgow" was correct, I googled (with Advanced Search):

in the far "in the far"

and I found 1,050,000,000 results. For example:

«Play Nicole Adventures in the Far East and other flash games...»
«They were in the far South on a regular visit to buy fruit...»
«But Sevilla have huge misses and likelihood think about draw in the far Moscow...»




Examples 1 & 2 are accepted usage and are covered by the Wikipedia extract noted below*.
Example 3 is incomprehensible and looks like some sort of machine translation. If that was written by an English speaker, I'll eat my hat!


Results taken from Google can be misleading since they record only the level of occurrence not the validity of a phrase. However, let's take it as a measure of frequency and carry out a search for "in the far Glasgow.". The search returns zero instances of that phrase and you can try it with any city you choose and the result will be zero or incredibly low.

In your original sentence, and correct me if I'm wrong, you were trying to convey the idea that Florentine speaking habits were now known as far away as Glasgow.
That sense can be rendered by using any of the following:

# distant Glasgow
# far-off Glasgow
# far away Glasgow


I've never heard an English speaker use the construction "the far Glasgow.".


Time permitting, I always search the net for parts of my sentences, just to check out if they are at least minimally comprehensible. For example, as to "one more way" vs. "one way more", couldn't it be that "one more way" translates to "un altro modo" and "one way more" is instead for "un modo ancora"? I don't know it, I'm just asking. Both these constructions have a lot of occurrences on Google. E.g., see "one more kiss" vs. "one kiss more", although the former is more common.


As you have noted, the former is the more commonly found usage. If you look at the results for the latter you'll see that they are all related to song lyrics where poetic licence has been used to make the phrase rhyme with another line.

regards,
Calum

* Extract from Wikipedia 'English Articles'

    An area in which the use or non-use of the is sometimes problematic is with geographic names. Names of rivers, seas, mountain ranges, deserts, island groups and the like are generally used with the definite article (the Rhine, the North Sea, the Alps, the Sahara, the Hebrides). Names of continents, islands, countries, regions, administrative units, cities and towns mostly do not take the article (Europe, Skye, Germany, Scandinavia, Yorkshire, Madrid). However there are certain exceptions:
    Countries and regions whose names are modified common nouns, or are derived from island groups, take the article: the United States, the United Kingdom, the Soviet Union, the Czech Republic, the Middle East, the Philippines, the Seychelles. Note also the Netherlands.
    Certain countries whose names derive from mountain ranges, rivers, deserts, etc. are sometimes used with an article (the Lebanon, the Sudan), but this usage is declining, although the Gambia is the recommended name of that country. Since the independence of Ukraine (formerly generally called the Ukraine), most style guides have advised dropping the article (in some other languages there is a similar issue involving prepositions). Use of the Argentine for Argentina is now old-fashioned.
    Some names include an article for historical reasons, such as The Bronx and The Hague.
    Names beginning with a common noun followed by of take the article, as in the Isle of Wight (compare Christmas Island). The same applies to names of institutions: Cambridge University, but the University of Cambridge.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_articles

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Re: Libri di autori italiani

Postby Peter » Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:31 pm

calum wrote:
Quintus wrote:Far from me the idea of arguing with native speakers, but the difference must be so small that Collins couldn't see it either:

«11 - You can use say or let's say when you mention something as an example.
To see the problem here more clearly, let's look at a different biological system, say, an acorn...»


In general, yes, you can use either. What Collins doesn't address is when one has a better flow, sound, than the other.


I agree; I don't think any dictionary does so.

Quintus wrote:Also, I am a bit confused as to "in the far Glasgow" versus "in far off Glasgow". According to the WordReference dictionary, "far off" is an adverb, not an adjective:


calum wrote:You are correct! I made a mistake in omitting the hyphen from the phrase; it should have read 'far-off', which is an adjective.
http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictio ... sh/far-off?


Bloomin' hyphens!! A necessary nuisance! :)

calum wrote:
Quintus wrote:So, yesterday, before posting my message, having no other chance to know if "in the far Glasgow" was correct, I googled (with Advanced Search):

in the far "in the far"

and I found 1,050,000,000 results. For example:

«Play Nicole Adventures in the Far East and other flash games...»
«They were in the far South on a regular visit to buy fruit...»
«But Sevilla have huge misses and likelihood think about draw in the far Moscow...»


Examples 1 & 2 are accepted usage and are covered by the Wikipedia extract noted below*.
Example 3 is incomprehensible and looks like some sort of machine translation. If that was written by an English speaker, I'll eat my hat!


Again, I agree with Calum; that whole phrase is gibberish. I cannot begin to determine what is trying to be said there, although I feel it has something to do with football!

calum wrote:In your original sentence, and correct me if I'm wrong, you were trying to convey the idea that Florentine speaking habits were now known as far away as Glasgow.
That sense can be rendered by using any of the following:

# distant Glasgow
# far-off Glasgow
# far away Glasgow


I've never heard an English speaker use the construction "the far Glasgow.".


Nor have I, and I would also say that using distant seems somewhat more poetic than prosaic - a phrase that Shelley, Keats or Wordsworth would possibly have used.

Quintus wrote:Time permitting, I always search the net for parts of my sentences, just to check out if they are at least minimally comprehensible. For example, as to "one more way" vs. "one way more", couldn't it be that "one more way" translates to "un altro modo" and "one way more" is instead for "un modo ancora"? I don't know it, I'm just asking. Both these constructions have a lot of occurrences on Google. E.g., see "one more kiss" vs. "one kiss more", although the former is more common.


calum wrote:As you have noted, the former is the more commonly found usage. If you look at the results for the latter you'll see that they are all related to song lyrics where poetic licence has been used to make the phrase rhyme with another line.


With one way more you are effectively saying also in English another way, eg: There is one more way/another way in which we can do this. One way more seems to me to indicate preference or comparison, or indeed both as in 'I prefer going to Norwich one way more than the other'. Having said that, I think both 'Juventus won by scoring one more goal than Palermo' and 'Juventus won by scoring one goal more than Palermo' are both equally correct. It's that subtle! :)
A presto


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