When to use the subjunctive

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BillyShears
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Post by BillyShears » Tue Sep 06, 2011 3:57 am

Franco,

Il piacere è mio amico mio.

A presto,

BS
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Chi domanda non fa errori.

Tom S. Fox
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Re: When to use the subjunctive

Post by Tom S. Fox » Fri May 04, 2018 12:39 am

Carlo wrote:
Mon Sep 04, 2006 4:31 am
I find that most learners are intrigued/frustrated by the difficulty of using this tense correctly.
It’s a mood, not a tense.
Carlo wrote:
Mon Sep 04, 2006 4:31 am
No worries. Many Italians also find it challenging.
Who? Show them to me. Where are these mythical Italians who can’t speak their own language? And if Italians are that bad at speaking their own language, then why am I expected to take the word of native speakers as gospel around here?
Carlo wrote:
Mon Sep 04, 2006 4:31 am
The following is a more exhaustive treatment than you will find anywhere, even in academic grammar textbooks aimed at Italian university students.
That is a rather grandiose statement, and one that is demonstrably false. Volume 2 of Grande grammatica di consultazione dedicates a whopping 67 pages to the subjunctive mood in subordinate clauses, and your post would be much shorter than it is if you hadn’t posted the first part twice.
Carlo wrote:
Mon Sep 04, 2006 4:31 am
The second post is an amazingly comprehensive guide to the subjunctive, part of an Italian Linguistics course at the University of Padova, prepared by students/assistants under the supervision of Professor Cortelazzo, one of Italy's most distinguished language scholars. It includes a list culled from a book by our foremost scholar Giulio Lepschy, Professor Emeritus in a UK university. It is controversial. It allows for the use of the indicative in a few cases in colloquial Italian.
Controversial among whom? Certainly not linguists. No linguist worth their salt would deny that there are situations where you can alternate between indicative and subjuncitve, in colloquial or formal Italian.

You also failed to realize that Cortelazzo was merely making a descriptive observation. He isn’t graciously allowing you to use the indicative — linguists can’t forbid you from speaking however you please — he is saying that there are only a few specific cases where people do alternate between the two moods.
Carlo wrote:
Mon Sep 04, 2006 4:31 am
indicativo congiuntivo totale congiuntivo/indicativo
dopo verbi dubitativi assertivi 29
(19,07%) 123
(80,92%) 152 4,24
Dopo verbi dubitativi modalizzanti 62
(25,72%) 179
(74,27%) 241 2,88
dopo aggettivi epistemici 134
(60,36%) 88
(39,63%) 222 0,65
Dopo verbi, aggettivi, nomi, avverbi valutativi 13
(19,40%) 54
(80,59%) 67 4,15
Totale 238
(34,89%) 444
(65,10%) 682 1,86

[…]

indicativo congiuntivo totale congiuntivo/indicativo
dopo verbi dubitativi assertivi 64
(40,25%) 95
(59,75%) 159 1,48
Dopo verbi dubitativi modalizzanti 182
(41,20%) 260
(58,80%) 442 1,42
dopo aggettivi epistemici 100
(76,33%) 31
(23,66%) 131 0,31
Dopo verbi, aggettivi, nomi, avverbi valutativi 39
(33,33%) 78
(66,66%) 117 2
Totale 385
(45,34%) 464
(54,65%) 849 1,20
Just copy-pasting these tables in here made them completely unreadable, so I reconstructed them Google Docs.

Now, before I get crap for criticizing Carlo again, I’d just like to state that I have nothing personal against the guy, and he has nothing against me. There is no bad blood between us. I am merely raising criticisms of things he wrote. Criticisms that are, by his own admission, valid. So if you have a problem with anything I say here, then tell me what I got wrong and cite evidence for your position. Don’t just reject what I say out of hand just because you really like Carlo.

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calum
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Re: When to use the subjunctive

Post by calum » Sat May 05, 2018 10:41 am

Hi Tom,

this will now be the third time I've had to warn you about the tone of your posts.

I have no problem with debate, discussion, disagreement or criticism, provided it is done without the hostility you seem to favour in your responses. If you can't fit in with the friendly nature of this forum then I suggest you find another that will accommodate you.

Calum

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calum
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Re: When to use the subjunctive

Post by calum » Tue May 22, 2018 9:55 am

Tom S. Fox,

I have decided that you are no longer welcome in my forum.

You have had three warnings about the tone of your messages on the forum and I have now become aware of your continued hostility via a private message to a member.

The private message facility is not to be used to taunt others and it is clear from the content of that message that you are interested only in upsetting others for your own amusement.

Goodbye.

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