would could should

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jazzy
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would could should

Post by jazzy » Fri Mar 25, 2011 6:26 pm

Salve ancora

Ho scritto queste frasi e prima che le mando a memoria vorrei assicurarmi che sono corrette. Mi aiutereste per piacere.

I would go --------------------Andrei
You (s)would eat - -----------Mangeresti
We would like to go ---------Vorremmo andare
I could go--------------------Potrei andare
You (s) could swim----------Potresti nuotare
He should leave-------------Dovrebbe andar via
we should write--------------Dovremmo scrivere

She would have gone ----------------Sarebbe andata
He/she would have eaten------------Avrebbe mangiato
We could have gone---------------Saremmo potuti/e andare
They could have eaten----------------Avrebbero potuto mangiare
I (f) would have liked to go-----------Sarei voluta andare
We should have gone----------------Saremmo dovuti/e andare
I would have liked to eat-------------Avrei voluto mangiare

We would have had to go/-------------------Saremmo dovuti/e andare
We would have been able to go---------Saremmo potuti/e andare
we would have had to eat--------------------Avremmo dovuto mangiare
You (pl) would have been able to go--------Avresti potuti/e andare
They would have been able to eat----------Avrebbero potuto mangiare

I (f)should be gone /I probably will have left
= Dovrei essere andata/ Sarà andata

I should have been------------------------Avrei dovuto essere

I (f)wasn't able to go (tried but failed)----Non sono potuta andare
I (f) had to go (and did)--------------------Sono dovuta andare
Non potevo andare-------------------------I was unable to go.

EDIT: please add anything helpful that I may have missed

What a mammoth task!

Grazie di nuovo
Jazz
Per piacere correggetemi, sbagliando s'impara. :)

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Peter
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Re: would could should

Post by Peter » Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:38 pm

jazzy wrote:Salve ancora

Ho scritto queste frasi e prima che le mando a memoria vorrei assicurarmi che sono corrette. Mi aiutereste per piacere.

I would go --------------------Andrei
You (s)would eat - -----------Mangeresti
We would like to go ---------Vorremmo andare
I could go--------------------Potrei andare
You (s) could swim----------Potresti nuotare
He should leave-------------Dovrebbe andar via
we should write--------------Dovremmo scrivere

She would have gone ----------------Sarebbe andata
He/she would have eaten------------Avrebbe mangiato
We could have gone---------------Potremmo esser andati
They could have eaten----------------Potrebbero aver mangiato
I (f) would have liked to go-----------Avrei voluto andare
We should have gone----------------Dovremmo esser andati
I would have liked to eat-------------Avrei voluto mangiare

We would have had to go/-------------------Avremmo dovuto andare
We would have been able to go---------Avremmo potuto andare (You can also say saremmo riusciti ad andare)
we would have had to eat--------------------Avremmo dovuto mangiare
You (pl) would have been able to go--------Avresti potuti/e andare (or saresti riusciti ad andare)
They would have been able to eat----------Avrebbero potuto mangiare

I (f)should be gone /I probably will have left
= Dovrei essere andata/ Sarà andata

I should have been------------------------Dovrei essere stata/o

I (f)wasn't able to go (tried but failed)----Non potevo andare (or non riuscivo ad andare)
I (f) had to go (and did)--------------------Dovevo andare
Non potevo andare-------------------------I was unable to go.

EDIT: please add anything helpful that I may have missed

What a mammoth task!

Grazie di nuovo
Jazz


Jazz

It seems that you have got a tad confused with the tenses and more particularly with the use of the auxiliary verb. :) Ma non preoccuparti!

When using a modal verb such as dovere, volere, potere, if you need to use the passato prossimo then all those verbs take avere. The auxiliary does not relate to the infinitive verb that you use - andare in most of your examples.

Al.so, I had to is the imperfect of I have to, and therefore you do not need to use the passato prossimo, or the conditional. It is simply dovevo/potevo/volevo.

I have to say it is not easy getting one's head round the various tenses and moods, particularly when they are used in slightly different ways in Italian to how they are in English. It took me long enough, God knows!! :lol:

I have included reference to riuscire, which means to be able, and is used very often instead of potere, particulary - so I understand - in the spoken word. If you are living in Italy, and I believe you are, it's handy to know!

No doubt, our Italian friends will correct us. Thanks for posting this. It was a good exercise. :)

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umberto
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Re: would could should

Post by umberto » Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:53 am

Peter wrote:
When using a modal verb such as dovere, volere, potere, if you need to use the passato prossimo then all those verbs take avere. The auxiliary does not relate to the infinitive verb that you use - andare in most of your examples.
Mamma mia, it’s quite the opposite!!!

With “dovere”, “potere” and “volere” the auxiliary does relate to the infinitive.

PARLARE (auxiliary “avere”)

ho parlato

ho dovuto parlare
ho potuto parlare
ho voluto parlare

VENIRE (auxiliary “essere”)

sono venuto (or sono “venuta”)

sono dovuto venire (or “sono dovuta venire” or “siamo dovuti venire” or “siamo dovute venire”)
sono potuto venire (or “sono potuta venire”)
sono voluto andare (or “sono voluta venire”)

The verb ESSERE (auxiliary “essere”) is the only one that accepts both

sono stato

sono dovuto/a essere
sono potuto/a essere
sono dovuto/a essere

or

ho dovuto essere
ho potuto essere
ho voluto essere



:D :D :D

jazzy
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Location: Biella, Italy

Post by jazzy » Sat Mar 26, 2011 12:30 pm

I have read that there are two schools of thought on this subject, which is why I wrote out those sentences. Aslo, I thought it may be of help to other learners,especially with the "should have had" tense. The "would" scenario I found easier ( with a bit of concentration) to grasp, than the "could and should" concept which is decidedly more difficult.

Could somebody with a lot of patience :) (my best smile) who prefers the Auxillary relating to the infinitive rule, correct the sentences I wrote. I would be most appreciative.

I would be super chuffed if I could get this out of the way and head on down towards the subjunctive for good!

Have a great day
Jazz
Per piacere correggetemi, sbagliando s'impara. :)

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Davide
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Post by Davide » Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:44 pm

I've always learned that with dovere, volere and potere, if the verb they're being used with normally uses 'essere' to form its perfect tense, then they have to use essere. Thus you would say 'avremmo dovuto comparare una nuova macchina' (because comprare uses avere to form the perfect tense) BUT saremmo dovuti/e tornare presto' (because tornare uses essere to form the perfect tense - and note that the verb has to agree with its subject).

As Umberto points out 'essere' can use both avere and/or essere.
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Post by Roby » Sat Mar 26, 2011 4:35 pm

Roby
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Peter
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Post by Peter » Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:25 pm

Mi spiace, jazz, ma ho imparato qualcosa ora!! :oops: :)

jazzy
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Location: Biella, Italy

Post by jazzy » Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:17 pm

Oh Peter, please don't feel like you need to apologise for anything. I learnt something I otherwise would have totally missed ; Isn't this what we're all here for. I am looking forward to the day when I'm as proficient as you in speaking Italian

Jazz :)
Per piacere correggetemi, sbagliando s'impara. :)

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Peter
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Post by Peter » Tue Mar 29, 2011 2:19 pm

Thanks, Jazz. Thinking about it a bit more, I've come to the consclusion that this was something that I did know, but which had completely disappeared off the radar, if I may put it like that. Now all I've got to do is try and find my brain; I know I left it hanging around somewhere...... :lol:

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-Luca-
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Post by -Luca- » Tue Mar 29, 2011 2:20 pm

Peter wrote:Thanks, Jazz. Thinking about it a bit more, I've come to the consclusion that this was something that I did know, but which had completely disappeared off the radar, if I may put it like that. Now all I've got to do is try and find my brain; I know I left it hanging around somewhere...... :lol:
Ciao Peter,

this is quite normal ;) The same thing happens to me.
Italians don't know what Caesar salad is !!

Tom S. Fox
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Re: would could should

Post by Tom S. Fox » Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:52 pm

umberto wrote:
Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:53 am
Peter wrote:When using a modal verb such as dovere, volere, potere, if you need to use the passato prossimo then all those verbs take avere. The auxiliary does not relate to the infinitive verb that you use - andare in most of your examples.
Mamma mia, it’s quite the opposite!!!

With “dovere”, “potere” and “volere” the auxiliary does relate to the infinitive.
Actually, using avere is quite correct, and has been since at least the 18th century:
No reputable grammar, either modern or ancient, says that using avere is incorrect:
[Sono] possibili sia le frasi a. che le frasi b. di (290)-(291):

(290)
a. Ieri non ho potuto venire a casa tua.
b. Ieri non sono potuto venire a casa tua.

(291)
a. Non ho più dovuto andare all’università.
b. Non sono più dovuto andare all’università.
Grande grammatica italiana di consultazione, vol. 1
Queſta regola però non è così ſicura, che in alcuni caſi non poſſano ancora coſtruirſi or coll’uno, or coll’altro auſiliare, potendoſi dire: egli ha voluto morire a forza, ed è voluto morire a forza: egli ha dovuto andare a Roma: ed egli è dovuto andare a Roma: ha potuto correre, ed è potuto correre.
Grammatica italiana per uso de’ giovanetti del dottore Jacopo Angelo Nelli.

In fact, when there is a clitic pronoun attached to the infinitive, avere is even preferable:
Ieri non ho potuto venirci. / ?Ieri non sono potuto venirci.
Non ho dovuto più andarci. / ?Non sono dovuto più andarci.
If, on the other hand, the clitic pronoun stands before the conjugated verb, only essere is possible:
Ieri non ci sono potuto venire. / *Ieri non ci ho potuto venire.
Non ci sono più dovuto andare. / *Non ci ho più dovuto andare.

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