Intesi come maschi / femmine

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BillyShears
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Intesi come maschi / femmine

Post by BillyShears » Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:17 am

Ciao a tutti,

Cosa significa "intesi come maschi (o intesi come femmine)"?

Quando non riescono ad accettare i cambiamenti, gli uomini - intesi come maschi - offrono complimenti. Quando non sanno imporsi rinunce, espongono buone intenzioni. La giornata di oggi, 8 marzo, vedrà un turbinìo di eventi, iniziative, congratulazioni e riconoscimenti del ruolo della donna. Ma le donne - intese come femmine - ormai l'hanno capito. Basta scostare le mimose, e il panorama retrostante è spoglio.

My attempt:
When they are unable to accept the changes, the men – just like males - offer congratulations. When they do not know how to impose sacrifices, they express good intentions. Today, March 8, will see a flurry of events, initiatives, congratulations and recognition of the role of women. But the women - just like females - now have understood this. Suffice to push aside the mimosas, and behind the panorama it is bare.

Grazie in anticipo,
BS
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Itikar
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Re: Intesi come maschi / femmine

Post by Itikar » Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:26 am

Mah, devo dirti che non è che mi sia così chiaro che cosa intendesse l'autore. :o

Supporrei che abbia aggiunto l'inciso "intesi come maschi" perché non voleva che il termine "uomini" fosse confuso cogli uomini in generale, cioè gli esseri umani, per cui "uomini e (donne)".

Però a questo punto non si spiegherebbe l'aggiunta dell'inciso per le donne...

Probabilmente i due incisi servivano ad evidenziare la contrapposizione tra i due sessi: maschi vs. femmine.

Mi piacerebbe sentire che ne pensano anche gli altri. :)
I would be very grateful, if you could please correct my English.

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Re: Intesi come maschi / femmine

Post by BillyShears » Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:58 am

Itikar wrote:Mah, devo dirti che non è che mi sia così chiaro che cosa intendesse l'autore. :o

Supporrei che abbia aggiunto l'inciso "intesi come maschi" perché non voleva che il termine "uomini" fosse confuso cogli uomini in generale, cioè gli esseri umani, per cui "uomini e (donne)".

Però a questo punto non si spiegherebbe l'aggiunta dell'inciso per le donne...

Probabilmente i due incisi servivano ad evidenziare la contrapposizione tra i due sessi: maschi vs. femmine.

Mi piacerebbe sentire che ne pensano anche gli altri. :)
Itikar,

Se sei interessato, ecco il link all'articolo: Il Fattore Donne e il Paese.

A presto,

BS
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Re: Intesi come maschi / femmine

Post by moku » Sun Apr 14, 2013 9:07 am

Forse, e dico forse, voleva mostrarci che l'uso della parola "uomini" e della parola "donna" non doveva essere letto in modo limitativo. Quando, infatti, si dice " uomo " o " donna ", un italiano pensa ad un adulto maschio e ad un'adulta femmina. Mentre, forse,voleva sottolineare che i termini erano da leggere in modo più ampio e che dunque comprendevano uomini e donne di qualsiasi età.

Sulla parola "uomini", poi, è sicuramente vero anche quello che dice Itikar.

Ad ogni modo, è un modo di esprimersi alquanto strano.

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Re: Intesi come maschi / femmine

Post by Itikar » Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:02 am

BillyShears wrote: Se sei interessato, ecco il link all'articolo: Il Fattore Donne e il Paese.
Grazie per il collegamento. :)
Anche avendolo letto però non vedo altra ragione per tale specificazione se non, appunto, quella stilistica o enfatica.

By the way I see that you often translate newspaper articles from Italian into English. Out of curiosity, is it a kind of exercise you are doing in a course?
I ask because I thought your level was high enough to start doing the other way around, i.e. English → Italian.
I would be very grateful, if you could please correct my English.

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Re: Intesi come maschi / femmine

Post by Quintus » Sun Apr 14, 2013 1:39 pm

It's a juxtaposition between the male and female kinds, as Alessandro said.

Man and woman are terms used to indicate beings provided with rationale and awareness. Male and female are used to indicate beings provided with instincts. In fact, the latter nouns are used also for animals. Now, in the real world men and women are provided both with rationale and instincts.

So, when the author says "When they are unable to accept the changes", he claims that it's men's instinctual sphere that prevails, although he had previously called them men. So, he needs to specify "I called them men, but I meant men considered as males, i.e. beings instinctively prone to be the owners of their habitat, and women are part of this habitat for them (or territory if you prefer)". So, "men considered as males" (intesi come maschi) means "men who want to prevail on women, keep in control of women".
What are the changes he refers to? It's the fact that an increasing number of women like or need to work nowadays, and hence it will possibly happen that a number of women will supplant men in this field.
When he says "When they do not know how to impose sacrifices on themselves", what sacrifices is he talking about? He refers to the fact that the men can't easily allow a notable number of their workplaces and careers be occupied by women. In other words, men can't renounce to a portion of their territory.
Finally, what does "But the women - intese come femmine - now have understood this" mean? It means that the women are instinctively talented to be well aware of the real world, hence they are able to understand that the men are making promises they can't keep.

It's also to be noted that "offrire complimenti" is a pretty fancy expression. A complimento is not "offered", is "fatto", made. The proper expression is "fare complimenti", there's not another one. The expression seems made up with two different expressions: "fare complimenti" (to pay compliments) and "offrire regali" (to offer gifts). To all practical purposes it's as the author said: "they pay woman compliments and give them mimosas as gifts".

One last consideration. Upon any practical point of view, the aforementioned clarifications "intesi come maschi" and "intesi come femmine" are unnecessary. The author seems using them only to mean "Men aren't generally so narrow-minded. If sometimes they are, it's because they let their instincts take over". As a defense, admitted that it's a defense, IMO it does not have a great philosophical value.

My free translation:

«When they are unable to accept the fact that the women will occupy a progressively increasing number of workplaces, the men – who, considered as males, tend to prevail - pay woman compliments and give them mimosas as gifts.
When they do not know how to impose sacrifices on themselves (imporsi sacrifici) by renouncing to a number of workplaces, they express good intentions and make woman promises that things will change. Today, March 8, will see a flurry of events, initiatives, congratulations and recognition of the role of women. But the women - who, as females, are instinctively aware of the real word - now have understood this. Suffice to push aside the mimosas, and the panorama behind them is bare.»

This article presents another point, a terrible one for me this time.

«Chi non ha sperimentato le carriere che si bloccano alla prima gravidanza conosce una donna che s'è trovata in quella condizione».

Chi è "Chi?". Who's "who"? Women? Men? Both them? Everybody? Somebody? "Those who didn't experienced careers halting on the first pregnancy know (the subject is "those who") a woman who did find herself in that condition» What woman? What condition? In the case, shouldn't it be "non conosce"instead of "conosce"? Should I know this woman? Do I need to experience a pregnancy to know her? This is absolutely incomprehensible to me, word by word, from the start to the end.

The journalist and writer who wrote that piece is Beppe Severgnini. He's a brilliant speaker and a simpatico man, too. But Jesus....

Should you not know the face of your (was: our) tormentor, Billy, you can see him here, in a talk-show called "Le invasioni barbariche" (The Barbarian Invasions) where he talked about Berlusconi's bunga bunga (also known as "bunga bunga factor" or "harem factor")

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UmQO5AeSsI

Was I of help to you?

Quintus

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Re: Intesi come maschi / femmine

Post by ladybird » Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:16 pm

Well, I think this is what is going to be occupying my time for the next few days, it's fascinating. I don't really understand the article properly (il dizionario e necessario!) but just judging by what you have all said, particularly you Quintus, it is badly written..no room for manoeuver so to speak.

Forse even those who have not experienced their career coming to a halt on the first pregnancy probably know a woman who has found herself in that situation

No, it's all wrong. I can't even make it work in English!. The other part is pretty poor too, making stereotypical judgements of both men and women. Non mi piace. 8)
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Re: Intesi come maschi / femmine

Post by Quintus » Sun Apr 14, 2013 6:33 pm

ladybird wrote:Forse even those who have not experienced their career coming to a halt on the first pregnancy probably know a woman who has found herself in that situation
It's not all wrong, it's all right. I admit it, the three missing words in bold were fatal to me, as well as that "in quella situazione". It should be "in questa situazione" in Italian, that is in the condition mentioned just one moment ago. Instead it looked like he was referring to something on the previous lines.

«even those who have not experienced their career coming to a halt on the first pregnancy probably know a woman who has found herself in that situation»

It works very well. It could be expressed even more explicitly, perhaps like this:

«even those women who have not experienced their career coming to a halt on the first pregnancy probably know another woman who has found herself in that situation»
«anche quelle donne che non hanno fatto l'esperienza della propria carriera bloccata alla prima gravidanza probabilmente conoscono un'altra donna che si è trovata in questa situazione»

Assolutamente complimenti, ladybird!!! Maybe the Severgnini's article is not that good, but on one thing he's right, you, intesa come donna, are very smart and intuitive! :D

Honestly, this is one of those things I can't read easily. A few lines past the start I need to read again and again and again, as a ball bouncing off a wall. Besides, all the women I have known for all my life in my town have always got not only "a" work, but just "the" work they wanted to have, and their pregnancies haven't made them lose it. But, on a larger scale, Severgnini could be right. He quotes official statistic which is not certainly wrong. Severgnini is not a dishonest thinker, it's only that he's a bit immoderate with his eloquence ( :D ), both when he speaks and writes.

Here's another fiorellino (little flower):

«Solo Malta è messa peggio di noi. Lo suggerisce l'osservazione, lo conferma uno studio dell'università Bocconi: senza il reticolo familiare poche nostre connazionali potrebbero lavorare»

«There's only Malta that is more badly-off than us (he's talking about work chances for women). That is suggested by the observation, and a Bocconi University research confirms it: without the familiar grid/reticulum only few of our fellow countrywomen could work»

Beside the fact that I can't observe/watch anything like that when I go down the streets and see the women (in the case, it's the contrary, as I said above), what's a "reticolo familiare"? He meant "rete familare", not "reticolo", a family network. And why a network? Sure because he was thinking of the trapeze artists. As these people have a network underneath them to save their lives, so the women have their family that preserves them both when they lose their work because of their pregnancies or simply when they need someone taking care of their children while working. I'm sure of this because this metaphor is commonly used (and cloned into slightly different versions).

Now, this was not the worst case, but if one finds two or three Pindaric flights of this kind on one line of text, at a point things start becoming uncomfortable.

However I would like to point out that Severgnini is not a bad journalist. My aim was not to be sarcastic. He's possibly one of our best ones (in a sense). He's a journalist, and, in the end, a journalist is a journalist :roll: :D

I better go back to Cimitile's matters, feel better there.

Quintus

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Re: Intesi come maschi / femmine

Post by BillyShears » Sun Apr 14, 2013 8:24 pm

Itikar wrote:By the way I see that you often translate newspaper articles from Italian into English. Out of curiosity, is it a kind of exercise you are doing in a course?
Ciao Itikar,

Seguo un corso serale d'italiano. Questo è il mio compito.

BS
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Re: Intesi come maschi / femmine

Post by BillyShears » Sun Apr 14, 2013 10:05 pm

Quintus wrote:It's a juxtaposition between the male and female kinds, as Alessandro said.

So, when the author says "When they are unable to accept the changes", he claims that it's men's instinctual sphere that prevails, although he had previously called them men. So, he needs to specify "I called them men, but I meant men considered as males, i.e. beings instinctively prone to be the owners of their habitat, and women are part of this habitat for them (or territory if you prefer)". So, "men considered as males" (intesi come maschi) means "men who want to prevail on women, keep in control of women".

Finally, what does "But the women - intese come femmine - now have understood this" mean? It means that the women are instinctively talented to be well aware of the real world, hence they are able to understand that the men are making promises they can't keep.
Capisco e sono d'accordo su te.
Quintus wrote: This article presents another point, a terrible one for me this time.

«Chi non ha sperimentato le carriere che si bloccano alla prima gravidanza conosce una donna che s'è trovata in quella condizione».

Chi è "Chi?". Who's "who"? Women? Men? Both them? Everybody? Somebody? "Those who didn't experienced careers halting on the first pregnancy know (the subject is "those who") a woman who did find herself in that condition» What woman? What condition? In the case, shouldn't it be "non conosce"instead of "conosce"? Should I know this woman? Do I need to experience a pregnancy to know her? This is absolutely incomprehensible to me, word by word, from the start to the end.
I literally translated this sentence as:
Those who have not experienced careers that are obstructed in the first pregnancy know a woman who finds herself in that situation.

And I interpret it as: If you (anyone in the workforce) have not experienced a first pregnancy as career halting personally (of course males can not) then you surely will know a woman (wife, lover, sister, cousin, aunt, friend, neighbor) who has.

According to my dictionaries and the online Wordreference "condizione" can also mean "situation". But I'll defer to you Quintus. Another thought, do Italians refer to pregnant women as "being in that condition"? If so maybe the author is attempting a pun.
Quintus wrote:The journalist and writer who wrote that piece is Beppe Severgnini. He's a brilliant speaker and a simpatico man, too. But Jesus....

Should you not know the face of your (was: our) tormentor, Billy, you can see him here, in a talk-show called "Le invasioni barbariche" (The Barbarian Invasions) where he talked about Berlusconi's bunga bunga (also known as "bunga bunga factor" or "harem factor")

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UmQO5AeSsI
Grazie Quintus.

Quintus wrote:Was I of help to you?

Quintus
Come sempre amico mio!
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Re: Intesi come maschi / femmine

Post by BillyShears » Sun Apr 14, 2013 10:19 pm

ladybird wrote:Well, I think this is what is going to be occupying my time for the next few days, it's fascinating. I don't really understand the article properly (il dizionario e necessario!) but just judging by what you have all said, particularly you Quintus, it is badly written..no room for manoeuver so to speak.

Forse even those who have not experienced their career coming to a halt on the first pregnancy probably know a woman who has found herself in that situation

No, it's all wrong. I can't even make it work in English!. The other part is pretty poor too, making stereotypical judgements of both men and women. Non mi piace. 8)
Ciao Ladybird,

In case you're interested and want some more background you may want to take a look at this link concerning the mimosa reference <click here>.

For the "un caso Ruby" you may be interested in this <click here>.

And note that Great Britan's "Davis" is actually Lord Davies.

BS
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Re: Intesi come maschi / femmine

Post by Quintus » Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:10 pm

BillyShears wrote:I literally translated this sentence as:
Those who have not experienced careers that are obstructed in the first pregnancy know a woman who finds herself in that situation.

And I interpret it as: If you (anyone in the workforce) have not experienced a first pregnancy as career halting personally (of course males can not) then you surely will know a woman (wife, lover, sister, cousin, aunt, friend, neighbor) who has.

The interpretation works well to me, but I'm afraid the literal translation would pose the same problems to me as the original Italian sentence, although, once I have understood it, it tends to sound clearer. Fact is, when I read a sentence in English, even though I don't always need to create the exact Italian equivalent of it in my mind (it depends on the sentence. If a sentence is immediately clear, I don't need to explicitly re-think it in Italian), the colour it takes in the background is unavoidably the one of my words.

So, if you write "Those who", this is for me "Quelli che". Since I can't know what your next words will be, my "default" interpretation is "quelli che", which is masculine (and plural) in Italian. Instead all we know now that it should be "quelle che", feminine, as he's talking of a situation that can occur to women only. This is to say that the literal translation may work in English, and only a native can really know that, but to me the equivalent of it is not a good start in Italian.

I think we can state that the Severgnini's article's reader most likely assumes he's speaking to a vast audience of women and men. So, when this reader reads "Chi", "Who", sh/e probably considers the use of "chi" correct because, you know it Billy, we use the masculine as the "default" gender when speaking to a group variously composed with both sexes. Also, notice that "chi" is masculine by "default", and always singular. For example:

- talking to a group of men or both men and women:
"Chi non è mai stato (masc.) a Roma?", Who has never been to Rome?

- talking to a group of women:
"Chi non è mai stata (fem.) a Roma?", Who has never been to Rome?

So, this initial, masculine and singular "chi" led me to think that the author was speaking of women and men. Instead he referred exclusively to women. But let's carry on. Next we find: "have not experienced careers that are obstructed in the first pregnancy". As you stated, males can't experience this situation. One could think that an Italian reader would reason like this: "OK, he was talking about women, let's go on". It's not so simple. Indeed, the author didn't said "careers", he said, "the careers that are halted", "le carriere che si bloccano". Because of that article, I had the impression that he was not strictly referring to the careers of the aforementioned women, but, let's say, to careers involving a wider, or different, set of women. What was needed there was "their (own) careers", "le loro (proprie) carriere", not "the careers". At a point I started wondering "Who's who has not experienced the careers of whom?"

My lack of comprehension of "the careers", in turn, put in doubt that he was speaking of women. And if he was not speaking of women, then that "experienced" had necessarily to take another meaning for him. All is possible with our dear Severgnini. "Experienced" in the sense of "got to know", perhaps? If so, we'd have:

«Those who (both men and women) have not got to know about (the) careers coming to a halt on the first pregnancy know a woman who has found herself in that situation»

Unfortunately, this looks like an oxymoron:

«Those who have not got to know about careers coming to a halt on the first pregnancy know a woman whose career came to a halt on her first pregnancy»

But enough with this!
According to my dictionaries and the online Wordreference "condizione" can also mean "situation". But I'll defer to you Quintus.
Yes, his original word was "condizione". In my second post I used "situazione" as I copied and pasted ladybird's text and didn't notice she changed it to "situation". Probably I didn't notice it because in this context situation is certainly better than condition, in Italian too. Both "situation" and "condition" seem taking the same meanings as "situazione" and "condizione", respectively. According to Longman:

- condition has five fundamental acceptances (1a, 1b, 1c - 2a, 2b - 3a, 3b - 4a, 4b, 4c, 4d, 4e - 5a, 5b), the first four of which are exactly the same as in Italian. The fifth one (5a, pl. archaic, manners, ways - 5b, obs, temper of mind) instead does not exist in Italian. IMO, the one that applies here is #3b: a favourable or unfavourable state of something.

- situation has six acceptances (1a, 1b - 2 - 3 - 4a, 4b - 5 - 6). All of them are exactly the same as in Italian. The one that applies here is IMO the #4a: the circumstances at a particular moment; esp a critical or problematic state of affairs.

As an Italian, I would say that when a woman loses his work because of his pregnancy, she founds herself in a bad "situation", not in a bad "condition", in so far as those are the circumstances at that particular moment of her life. Nevertheless, if the consequences of that occurrence are such as to reduce her to a state of poverty, psychological difficulties and like, her momentary "situation" becomes a permanent, chronic "condition". So, there's some degree of freedom in the use of these words for us, depending on one's need to outline one or the other aspect, which is a somewhat subjective evaluation.
It's also interesting to note that Longman considers the use of "situation" in place of "condition" archaic (the acceptance #6 of "situation", e.g. for state of health). In Italy, we would consider it more or less improper, although not archaic.
Another thought, do Italians refer to pregnant women as "being in that condition"? If so maybe the author is attempting a pun.
We could explore the possibility of a pun if Severgnini referred to "being in a state of pregnancy" in respect with "being in a state of unemployment". Though I have the impression that he actually meant "state of unemployment" (see the careers that are obstructed). He used the word "condition" as he probably thinks that a temporary state of unemployment caused by a pregnancy is destined to become permanent because of the severe difficulties that a mother who has lost his work must face. Besides, we use the plural "condizioni" when referring to a pregnant woman:

"Una donna in quelle condizioni (e.g. pregnant, incinta) non dovrebbe affrontare un viaggio così lungo"

We also use the plural to refer to a bad state of health:

«Come ti sembra che stia Mario?»
«Purtroppo mi sembra in cattive condizioni»

as well as for a bad state of affairs:

«A causa della crisi, la nostra società si trova in condizioni finanziarie terribili»

and others. Most of times, "a bad condition" is "bad conditions", "cattive condizioni" in Italian.

Spero di non averti confuso le idee!

Ciao,
Franco

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Re: Intesi come maschi / femmine

Post by calum » Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:20 am

My interpretation of BillyShears' translation is:

Those people (be they women who have not become pregnant, or men, who cannot become pregnant) who have not experienced career problems as a result of pregnancy will surely know someone ( a woman ) who has.

In this way, Severgnini is trying to emphasise how widespread he perceives the problem to be.

The interpretations of both BS and Ladybird make sense to me.

Calum

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Re: Intesi come maschi / femmine

Post by Quintus » Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:04 pm

calum wrote:My interpretation of BillyShears' translation is:

Those people (be they women who have not become pregnant, or men, who cannot become pregnant) who have not experienced career problems as a result of pregnancy will surely know someone ( a woman ) who has.

In this way, Severgnini is trying to emphasise how widespread he perceives the problem to be.

The interpretations of both BS and Ladybird make sense to me.

Calum
As I attempted to explain throughout my previous message, it's the Italian translation of the various English versions that is in question, not the correctness or expressiveness of the English versions themselves, as I am aware that only a native can really sense if a sentence works or not. So, the interpretations in English of both Billy and ladybird make sense to me too.

Although I understand your point, I can't see how, in Italian, one could use the verb "sperimentare" (to experience) for men while he's talking about pregnancies. If Severgnini was trying to emphasize how widespread the problem is, his use of that verb makes his sentence funny, or unclear. In case, he could have used the expression "avere sentore" (to hear about) or "avere notizia" (in the sense of to get to know). But, as I have already shown in my previous message, the sentence would be transformed into an oxymoron with them.

Both the sentences of ladybird and Billy start with "Those", as well as the one of yours. In my opinion, this is what renders them acceptable to a native English speaker, and to me too in this case. In fact, the pronoun "those" does not specifically relate to men or women either. So, the English sentence does not initially take any particular sense or meaning or color. I do not have this chance: I have to choose between "quelli" (for men or men and women) and "quelle" (for women only). If I choose "quelli", the sentence starts at once being referred to men and when one next finds "experienced a halted pregnancy", the thing becomes hilarious, or awkward.

The original sentence was:

«Chi non ha sperimentato le carriere che si bloccano alla prima gravidanza conosce una donna che s'è trovata in quella condizione»

It literally translates to:

«Who has not experienced the careers that block themselves on the first pregnancy knows a woman who found herself in that condition».

This is quite a poor piece of prose! "who" is "chi", and "chi" is affected by the same problems as "quelli che". This sentence should be as follows, there aren't many other ways:

«Anche quelle (= quelle donne) che non hanno sperimentato la propria carriera bloccata alla prima gravidanza probabilmente conoscono un'altra donna che si è trovata in questa situazione»

Quintus

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