time expression related question

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kriszti823
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:45 pm

time expression related question

Postby kriszti823 » Sun Dec 18, 2016 7:03 pm

Hi everyone!

I came along the following sentence in a book:
'Veramente di solito lavoro dalle otto e un quarto di mattina alle cincque di pomeriggio'.
I know what it means (something like this: In real I usually work from 8.15 a.m until 5 p.m.)
What I don't understand is, why does the word 'di' remain unchanged?
In case of 'di mattina' it could have been 'della mattina' and of 'di pomeriggio': 'del pomeriggio'. So why didn't they change?
The same book gives another examples: sono le due e mezzo del pomeriggio (it's 2.30 p.m.) or 'sono le otto e dieci della mattina'.
So why it is changed in one sentence and unchanged in the next one?

Thank you in advance for your help!

kriszti823
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:45 pm

Re: time expression related question

Postby kriszti823 » Sun Dec 18, 2016 7:18 pm

And here comes another example: É l'una di notte.
Why doesn't it change to 'della notte'?

kriszti823
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:45 pm

Re: time expression related question

Postby kriszti823 » Sun Dec 18, 2016 7:54 pm

I've just found another one. This one has nothing to do with time, I just don't get why 'a' is not conjugated all the time.
Why do they say : 'vado a scuola' and not 'alla scuola', when they say 'vado al bar' or 'vado alla stazione'?

Geoff
Posts: 240
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:55 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: time expression related question

Postby Geoff » Mon Dec 19, 2016 5:10 am

Either di or del/della is correct. I think di without the direct article is probably more common but I am not 100% sure on that.

As for a scuola, al bar, in banca etc, that is just the way it is and you have to learn each case separately, unfortunately.

kriszti823
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:45 pm

Re: time expression related question

Postby kriszti823 » Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:42 pm

Thanks a lot Geoff! I was a bit confused but if it's not so strict then I will learn in most cases the exceptions.

Dylan Thomas
Posts: 71
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2012 11:08 pm

Re: time expression related question

Postby Dylan Thomas » Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:41 pm

Geoff is 100% right: either form is correct.

(a) Esco di casa alle otto della mattina (or: di mattina) e ritorno alle cinque del pomeriggio (or: di pomeriggio).

(b) Vado a letto alle due di notte (or: della notte).

The same is true for “sera”:
(c) Erano le sette della sera (or: di sera) quando lo sentii rientrare.

It’s just a matter of personal choice. I would say “di mattina” and “del pomeriggio” in (a) and “di” in (b) and (c).

I just wanted to add that you must use the “preposizioni articolate” (that is to say, di + definite article: del, della) when the expression of time is followed by a phrase or a sentence (the ones I’ve underlined) which add further details:

(a) Gli telefonai alle otto della mattina della sua partenza per Roma.
(b) Alle due della notte di Natale uscimmo per andare al ristorante.
(c) Lo incontrai alle sette della sera che cominciò a nevicare.


As for “a scuola”, “al bar”, “alla stazione”, I’ll be back as soon as possible. I first want to ask my Italian colleagues at school about the rules (if any) which govern prepositions of place.

DT

Dylan Thomas
Posts: 71
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2012 11:08 pm

Re: time expression related question

Postby Dylan Thomas » Sat Dec 24, 2016 1:22 pm

Geoff said: “As for a scuola, al bar, in banca etc, that is just the way it is and you have to learn each case separately, unfortunately.”
He is 100% right once again.

I did hope to come up with a rule governing the prepositions “a” and “in” (“preposizioni semplici”) and their “forme articolate” “nel, nella, al, alla, etc. I’m afraid there is no rule.
The following are some of the so-called “locuzioni cristallizzate” (i.e. prepositional phrases which must be learnt by heart):

sono / vado
in garage
in chiesa
a scuola
a teatro
in campagna
in banca
in ufficio
al mercato
alla stazione
al ristorante
allo stadio

BUT

You must use the “preposizione articolata” when you want to say something more precise about the noun.

(1) Lascerò la mia auto in garage, perché fuori piove.
Lascerò la mia auto nel garage di Luciano, perché fuori piove.
(2) Sono / vado in chiesa per il matrimonio di Anna e Marco.
Sabato sono andato nella chiesa del Carmine per il matrimonio di Anna e Marco.
(3) Sono a teatro per la rappresentazione dell’”Amleto”.
Vado / Sono al teatro Raffaello per la rappresentazione dell’”Amleto”.
(4) Sono ancora in ufficio. Ho molte pratiche da sbrigare.
Sono ancora nel mio ufficio. Ho molte pratiche da sbrigare.

DT

kriszti823
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:45 pm

Re: time expression related question

Postby kriszti823 » Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:39 am

Dylan, thanks a lot for this very detailed explanation!!


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