Comparatives in English

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raphaelt
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Post by raphaelt » Thu Mar 12, 2009 12:21 am

isablu wrote:il verbo cominciare non è usato mai in modo riflessivo, non capisco bene cosa vuoi dire, comunque puoi fare la prova così:

io ho cominciato me stesso a imparare (?????)

vedrai che ti suonerà un po' strano, mentre invece

io ho vestito me stesso alle sette

allora sì! e puoi sostituire con il pronome

io mi sono vestito alle sette

se hai bisogno di altri chiarimenti chiedi pure, è un piacere!

Ah! Io ho sembrato parlare le assurdità! Mi scusa.

Parli inglese? What I meant to say was this:

I started to learn Italian in the past, but this time I am more happy with the results.

or

I began studying Italian a few times in the past, but this time I am more happy with the results.

Forse:

Io ho cominciato a imparare nel passato, ma il questo tempo a mi piacciono più i risultati.

Pompiere
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Post by Pompiere » Thu Mar 12, 2009 3:15 am

Peter wrote:
Pompiere wrote::(:(:( I feel even more inadequate .... . :)

Rich
Hey, Rich, never feel inadequate. I would assume that you are a tad older than our young friend Raphael ...............
And don't forget.... we're here to help. :) :)
Peter:

Grazie per le sue parole gentile. Penso che la parole TAD, sia stato molto benevelo.... :): Ho avuto sesanta anni un mese fa, ma mi sento bellissimo e sono molto contento con i suoi aiuto e anche con il aiuto dal forum.

Bouna sera,
Richard

Pompiere
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Post by Pompiere » Thu Mar 12, 2009 3:33 am

isablu wrote:[

Riccardo,
mi associo a ciò che ha scritto Peter, vorrei infonderti fiducia e tenacia (cercati queste belle parole!), ma per ora ti mando un grosso
stai su!
isabella :P
ISABLU .....

Grazie molto, Isablu tu sei un parlante con molto moltivazione, mi piacciono moltissimo le sue parole incoraggianti ...... :)

Sinceramente,
Riccardo

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isablu
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Post by isablu » Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:17 am

@ Raphael, finally I understood what you meant.
In the past (in passato) I started to learn (ho cominciato a imparare/studiare) few times (varie volte), but this time (ma questa volta), I'm more happy with the results (sono più soddisfatto dei risultati).

In my opinion to be happy with cannot be translated by piacere in this case, but by essere soddisfatto which may give a closer idea of what you meant (I hope so). As regards this time, have a look in the dictionary and you will see that it gives two (or more) disctict translations: time as "tempo" (for example: Oggi non ho tempo per giocare con te) and time as "volta" (for example: E' la prima volta che visito Firenze) whereas in English the same word (time) can be used.
Scusa se faccio un'altra piccola correzione, ma penso sia importante:
Ah! Io ho sembrato parlare le assurdità! Mi scusa.
may be you meant "sorry for having said such absurd things"??

I don't know if this was the sense, but it would have been:

Mi sembra di aver detto delle assurdità. Scusami

Dire= to say VERSUS parlare= to speak/talk

spero di non averti frainteso and hope not to seem too wise guy (si dice così?)
isabella
:roll:

Roby
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Post by Roby » Thu Mar 12, 2009 1:15 pm

Ah! Io ho sembrato parlare le assurdità! Mi scusa.

Parli inglese? What I meant to say was this:

I started to learn Italian in the past, but this time I am more happy with the results.

or

I began studying Italian a few times in the past, but this time I am more happy with the results.

Forse:

Io ho cominciato a imparare nel passato, ma il questo tempo a mi piacciono più i risultati


Raphael and Isabella

To say more happy is incorrect.

I started to learn Italian in the past, but this time I am HAPPIER /MORE PLEASED with the results.

or

I began studying Italian a few times in the past, but this time I am HAPPIER/MORE PLEASED with the results.

direi:
A varie volte in passato , Ho cominiciato imparare l'italiano, comunque,questa volta, sono piu' soddisfatto dei risultati.
Roby
"Per raro che sia, il vero amore e' meno raro della vera amicizia."

"As rare as true love is, it is not as rare as true friendship."
- François de La Rochefoucauld

raphaelt
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Post by raphaelt » Thu Mar 12, 2009 5:51 pm

isablu wrote:@ Raphael, finally I understood what you meant.
In the past (in passato) I started to learn (ho cominciato a imparare/studiare) few times (varie volte), but this time (ma questa volta), I'm more happy with the results (sono più soddisfatto dei risultati).

In my opinion to be happy with cannot be translated by piacere in this case, but by essere soddisfatto which may give a closer idea of what you meant (I hope so). As regards this time, have a look in the dictionary and you will see that it gives two (or more) disctict translations: time as "tempo" (for example: Oggi non ho tempo per giocare con te) and time as "volta" (for example: E' la prima volta che visito Firenze) whereas in English the same word (time) can be used.
Scusa se faccio un'altra piccola correzione, ma penso sia importante:
Ah! Io ho sembrato parlare le assurdità! Mi scusa.
may be you meant "sorry for having said such absurd things"??

I don't know if this was the sense, but it would have been:

Mi sembra di aver detto delle assurdità. Scusami

Dire= to say VERSUS parlare= to speak/talk

spero di non averti frainteso and hope not to seem too wise guy (si dice così?)
isabella
:roll:
I'll answer in English, so I can hopefully make myself clearer --

Firstly, I really appreciate you taking the time to help me construct better Italian sentences. I think you come across as nothing more than a very helpful person, so thank you!

With the following:
Ah! Io ho sembrato parlare le assurdità! Mi scusa.
My intention was to say "Ah! I seemed to speak nonsense! Excuse me!" My dictionary suggested that «assurdità» was the closest Italian equivalent, but I wasn't entirely confident.

One of the trickiest things with learning Italian is knowing when to use specific Italian words when more than one of them roughly translate into the English word I want to use: such as «volta» or «tempo». It seems that «tempo» is used more frequently to refer to "weather", and «volta» to "time". Is that correct?

Although affixing the pronome soggetto to the verbo imperativo is ahead of my progress in il testo, I already was aware of it but I haven't become comfortable using it in my own Italian writing yet. Is it considered OK to use "Mi Scusa" or "Mi Scrivi" and so on instead of "scusami" or is this considered incorrect?

I realize now that «più» really could not be used unless there was un aggettivo -- such as «soddisfatto». I didn't know that word but now I understand how to construct this type of sentence much better. Grazie!

@roby --

Were you saying that "more happy" is incorrect in English, or in Italian?

Actually, I have to differ with you in the English case. Saying "more happy" is using the periphrastic comparative adjective, rather than the inflectional which uses the suffix "-er". Both are grammatically correct (and identical in meaning) -- however, the inflectional with the suffix is more common in English. If Isabella is a studente d'inglese, it's probably better to say "happier", but "more happy" is not incorrect usage.

By the way, I really like your avatar!

One more question to everyone: do people generally use the formal or informal expressions in forums like this one? So: "scusi" and not "scusa"? I don't want to come across as rude!

Thanks very much for all the replies and help.

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Peter
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Post by Peter » Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:52 pm

Raphael

We do not stand on ceremony here, so you can use the informal tu form.

Periphrastic? Ye Gods.. they never told me about that when I was at Grammar School!! :lol: However, I agree, Raphael. One can use either the 'more' form or the '-er' form in many instances.

More happy / happier
More sad / sadder
More rude /ruder
More polite / politer
More whacky / whackier
More cranky / crankier
More clever / cleverer

and so on.

As to time, maybe - when you have a few spare moments because it is a long entry - you can check out Garzanti at http://www.garzantilinguistica.it/inter ... emma=64760. I take it you already know about Garzanti; it is an invaluable dictionary resource that you can join online. :D

Roby
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Post by Roby » Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:50 pm

@roby --

Were you saying that "more happy" is incorrect in English, or in Italian?

Actually, I have to differ with you in the English case. Saying "more happy" is using the periphrastic comparative adjective, rather than the inflectional which uses the suffix "-er". Both are grammatically correct (and identical in meaning) -- however, the inflectional with the suffix is more common in English. If Isabella is a studente d'inglese, it's probably better to say "happier", but "more happy" is not incorrect usage.

By the way, I really like your avatar!
Raphael ,


It seems to be a matter of taste whether one use happier or more happy. Personally, I prefer happier. It is not used as much so it may seem strange to the ear. I stand corrected.

http://www.edufind.com/english/grammar/adjectives5.cfm

http://www.bartleby.com/68/45/145.html


Other explanations about happy and the comparative
http://esl.about.com/cs/beginner/a/beg_compsup.htm
http://www.ego4u.com/en/cram-up/grammar ... adjectives
http://www.dailywritingtips.com/compara ... djectives/
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/happy

Thanks for the comment about the avatar. The painting is located in Brera Museum in Milan, Italy.
Roby
"Per raro che sia, il vero amore e' meno raro della vera amicizia."

"As rare as true love is, it is not as rare as true friendship."
- François de La Rochefoucauld

raphaelt
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Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 7:06 pm

Post by raphaelt » Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:19 am

@peter: I did NOT know about the website you linked to, and I have immediately bookmarked it! Thanks very much for steering me to it. Now I have to find a moment to peruse the entry on time.

You know, I have a conspiracy theory that there is an evil thinktank of men who sit around and devise words like "periphrastic" just to frighten and confuse the populace. I can think of no other reason why someone would invent such a word.


@roby: I also prefer the term "happier", and probably use it more in everyday conversation, too. Sometimes I find it nice to use other, less-familiar (but still grammatically correct) English constructions when translating Italian (or any other language, really), I think, because I find it can make more sense of the way in which Italians construct their language.

For instance, sometimes it's easier to compare "more happy than her" to, say, "più soddisfatto di ti", because the phrases correspond to each other very obviously. But in everyday speech I would almost certainly say "happier than her", I think.

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isablu
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Post by isablu » Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:03 pm

Dear Raphael it's a pleasure to help you with these tricky expressions.
My intention was to say "Ah! I seemed to speak nonsense! Excuse me!" My dictionary suggested that «assurdità» was the closest Italian equivalent, but I wasn't entirely confident.
Indeed, for me assurdità is the most appropriate term, in fact, if I remember well, I underlined parlare which should have been dire. Sometimes I'm a bit twisted (contorted), and I didn't mean to confuse your ideas (muddle you up?)

As for this
Is it considered OK to use "Mi Scusa" or "Mi Scrivi" and so on instead of "scusami" or is this considered incorrect?
if you say : mi scusi, è lontana la stazione?
mi scusi, sa dirmi l'ora?
mi scusi, ha visto passare la corriera per Terni?

you are asking someone you don't know something in a polite way. Actually scusi is not indicativo, but congiuntivo as in congiuntivo esortativo (se ne vada! go away! to a person you don't know, or, stia zitto! Shut up). In this case you cannot attach the pronoun to the verb: scusimi * (you said pronome soggetto, but here mi is not soggetto, but oggetto, perchè il soggetto is Lei! =Lei (pronome soggetto sottinteso) mi (pronome complemento oggetto) scusi (predicato verbale).
The case is different if you say:

scusami, ti ho fatto male?
ieri non ti ho telefonato, scusami!

this is certainly more informal and you can use it when you know the person and you are using the tu. For me, it can be substituted by the simpler scusa! Anyway, I think here on the forum we can use the informal way.

I
f Isabella is a studente d'inglese, it's probably better to say "happier", but "more happy" is not incorrect usage.


I should confess that I went after you in using this comparative form, which I would say incorrect as Roby said, , but this is a shame for me, since, actually I'm not a student, but a teacher! I hope my students, who incidentally are learning just the comparative forms in these days, will never know about that. Please, acqua in bocca!
saluti!
isabella

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Peter
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Post by Peter » Sat Mar 14, 2009 10:42 am

Nonostante quello che ho detto nel mio messaggio precedente, devo dire che preferisco piuttosto happier che more happy, sebbene, come ho detto, l'ultima non è scorretta.

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isablu
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Post by isablu » Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:54 am

Peter, io pensavo al modo di esprimersi. In italiano tu puoi dire, per esempio correggendo un testo a scuola o leggendo delle frasi:

non è chiaro. Questo periodo è un po' contorto.

cioè non semplice, non lineare. Come avrai notato, questo è un po' un mio difetto che si rispecchia nel mio modo di scrivere (probabilmente anche di pensare). Secondo me uno può essere contorto ma non confused, mentre twisted mi sembra di capire che c'è qualcosa di malevolo tipo, occulto. Pensa al tronco di un ulivo, quello è contorto. hem, però io non sono così grave, vero? :wink:
isabella

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isablu
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Post by isablu » Mon Mar 16, 2009 10:03 pm

Thank you so much, Rapheal for the info given in your post. You seem to have understood my point and convoluted can be adequate in my opinion. Besides, in Italian too there is the corresponding adjective (overt Latin origin) convoluto, but it is so rarely used and you cannot definitely refer to a person but only to sentences, may be to paths as being with too many curves and loops.
Now, let's have a little correction time:
Tu hai rivolguto a Peter
the correct form here is

ti sei rivolta a Peter

il verbo è rivolgersi (rivolgere + si) ed è riflessivo quindi devi usare l'ausiliare essere (io mi sono rivolta, tu ti sei rivolto, egli si è rivolto etc...). E' un verbo abbastanza frequente e l'hai usato in un contesto appropriato. Quindi, avanti così!!!!
grazie e ciao
isabella

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