pure e pur

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dcnsanti
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pure e pur

Post by dcnsanti » Sat Apr 14, 2007 9:56 pm

Ciao gente! Scusatemi, ma non capisco bene come usare "pure" e "pur".
Qualcuno di voi mi potete dare un esempio (una frase, forse con una traduzione in inglese)?
Grazie (e per favore mi scusino l'italiano tutto sbagliato)... sto imparando ma molto piano... :?

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giuseppe
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Post by giuseppe » Sat Apr 14, 2007 11:06 pm

I can't find "pur" in my dictionaries, it looks like a truncated word to me (assuming it's not a typo).

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timLA
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Post by timLA » Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:12 am

Pur is Pure, and is used in modern texts, poetry and can be even seen in the Divine Comedy.
Una mucca dice all'altra "Hai letto della "mucca pazza"? L'altra dice "Sì, ho sentito. Che fortuna che io sono un pinguino!

Roby
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Re: pure e pur

Post by Roby » Sun Apr 15, 2007 1:13 pm

dcnsanti wrote:Ciao gente! Scusatemi, ma non capisco bene come usare "pure" e "pur".
Qualcuno di voi mi potete dare un esempio (una frase, forse con una traduzione in inglese)?
Grazie (e per favore mi scusino l'italiano tutto sbagliato)... sto imparando ma molto piano... :?
Pure: means also, just

Tim and Roby are chatting on the pc.
Roby says:
Scusi, ora devo andare, Ti dispiace?
Tim says:
No, vai pure--go ahead--just go

Simona is talking with her boyfriend Giorgio on the phone.

Simona says, Mi manchi tanto. Stasera ti sognero' pure di notte
I'm miss you very much. Tonight, I'll dream about you also.


More examples....
Roby

Carlo
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Post by Carlo » Sun Apr 15, 2007 9:16 pm

I was thinking that "pure" is quite an odd word. I can't think of another Italian word whose meaning changes depending on whether it is truncated ("pur") or not.

In contemporary Italian it is never truncated in the meanings perfectly illustrated by Roby, i.e. "also" ("studia pure di notte", "vieni pure tu?") and "just" (only used after imperatives, in a sort of encouraging tone: "vai pure", "si accomodi pure", something like "please feel free to...").

"Pur", however, is a completely different beast. It is often used, followed by a gerund, in the sense of "even though":

L'ho invitata, pur sapendo benissimo (though I know only too well) che non verrà

It is also used, followed by "di" + an infinitive, in a sense I don't quite know how to translate into English:

Farebbe di tutto pur di riaverla

This is stronger than "per riaverla". It is used when you would go to any lengths to achieve something you care about very much.

Finally, the truncated form is usually used in set phrases like "è pur vero che...", something like "however, one must admit that...".

EDIT: Tim, you will find "pure" truncated to "pur" in the "also" sense in poetry and in older texts but not in contemporary spoken or written Italian

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giuseppe
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Post by giuseppe » Sun Apr 15, 2007 9:41 pm

timLA wrote:Pur is Pure, and is used in modern texts, poetry and can be even seen in the Divine Comedy.
uhm, the language used in the Divine Comedy is to modern Italian as, more or less, the one used in the Canterbury Tales is to modern English :)

However, on second thoughts, the only example I can think of right now (assuming he was referring to modern spoken language) is something like this:
Pur di raggiungere il suo scopo, farebbe qualsiasi cosa
which has the same meaning of
Farebbe qualsiasi cosa per raggiungere il suo scopo.

As I said before, none of my dictionaries have this word, even though I think that in the first example pur di should be two conjunctions used to introduce a final clause.
Last edited by giuseppe on Mon Apr 16, 2007 10:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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giuseppe
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Post by giuseppe » Sun Apr 15, 2007 10:01 pm

moodywop wrote:I was thinking that "pure" is quite an odd word.
LOL non avevo visto il post (quando avevo aperto la pagina non mi era ancora apparso) che è anche più esaustivo :lol: beh in ogni caso buona serata :)

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timLA
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Pure

Post by timLA » Mon Apr 16, 2007 12:41 pm

Great discussion.

Is there another "pure" that I don't know about? :lol:

When I see "pure" I think of "anche".

I'm told that "pure" is more commonly used in the south of Italy, and I have heard it in my travels south of Rome, and even heard my Roman friends say "pure" just like they might say "anche".

I agree with Giuseppe about the "old" use, I need a dictionary for Chaucer AND Shakespeare! :D

But I have seen it in modern formats around a gerund as mentioned by MW.

?
Thanks in advance
Una mucca dice all'altra "Hai letto della "mucca pazza"? L'altra dice "Sì, ho sentito. Che fortuna che io sono un pinguino!

Carlo
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Re: Pure

Post by Carlo » Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:04 pm

timLA wrote: But I have seen it in modern formats around a gerund as mentioned by MW.

?
Thanks in advance
Hi Tim

Let's see if the other NIS agree but I feel pretty sure that when meaning "also" "pure" is not truncated, except in poetry and older texts.

The uses of "pur" followed by a gerund or in "pur di...", however, are quite common. I use both constructions frequently.

Carlo

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