Spanky's Official Thread!

Have a question about Italian grammar? Need a quick translation from Italian to English or vice versa? Post it here!
Devery
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Spanky's Official Thread!

Post by Devery »

O.k., I would like to designate this thread as my way of learning from others who are more knowledgeable than me. If you don't mind, instead of me opening thread after thread after thread, I will use this one as a platform for all of my questions. And I have soooooooooo many. So please, be kind and help me out!
One of my problems is that I want to learn everything at once. Well that, I feel, is not a good approach. So, currently I am focusing on Vocabulary with grammar I am capable of.
I am fortunate enough to have some old school books from some of my cousin-in-laws from Italy. I have a second grade book, a third grade book, and a fifth grade book. I have found that my current level is the second grade! :oops: But, you have to start somewhere. So, without further adieu, let me show you some examples (from: L'albero delle parole. Maddalena Comi, Angelo Vigo 1995 by La Nuova Italia Editrice) and then let me ask some questions. Va bene? Impariamo!

Lezione 1
Dictionary (if you don't know a word)
http://www.wordreference.com/enit/

Here is an example:
A LUCA PIACE COLLEZIONARE GLI ANIMALI DI PEZZA. HA CANI, GATTI, ORSACCHIOTTI ED ANCHE UNA GIRAFFA COL COLLO LUNGO. OGGI LA NONNA GLI HA REGALATO UN PANDA.

Ho tre domande per questa frase.

1.) Do you have to say "A Luca piace" or is "Luca Piace" also good? (remember it is at the beginning of the sentence)

2.) I have heard that the preposition "con" is hardly contracted with the articles (con + il = col) because it sounds funny to the native speaker. So, does this sound "strange" to those of you who speak Italian? Also, would it be o.k. to say "con un collo lungo?"

3.) Now, my hardest question and biggest stumbling block I have in Italian: THE PRONOUNS!
OGGI LA NONNA GLI HA REGALATO UN PANDA.

I understand that this would translate as "Today the Grandma gave him a Panda."
When I read this I have no problem understanding that GLI is the boy.

But, look at this next example in the book:
IL MIO CANE BUBU È UN ESPERTO PILOTA. GUIDA LA MIA AUTOMOBILE DA CORSA. IO LO SEGUO PERCHÈ QUALCHE VOLTA FINISCE CONTO UN ALBERO.
Here we have the same concept in English, the pronouns in both sentences are "him." However, one sentence says GLI and the other LO.
The grandma gave him a Panda
I follow him because. . .

How can an English speaker learn when to use either GLI or LO when in English it is always the same (wether direct or indirect)?
I mean, is there a foolproof way for me to learn how BESIDES having to think every time if this is a "direct object" or an "indirect object?"
Does anyone have any clever learning tricks along these lines?
Thank you.
Last edited by Devery on Mon Jul 02, 2007 9:16 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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ladybird
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Location: Norfolk, England

Post by ladybird »

Gli -TO him
lo-just "him"

Probably no help to you at all but I don't think there is an easy way around this.
If there were, I think I would have found it by now :roll:
Life is for living and learning.
Roby
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Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2004 2:06 pm

Post by Roby »

1.) Do you have to say "A Luca piace" or is "Luca Piace" also good? (remember it is at the beginning of the sentence

Check out this link

http://www.impariamo.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=141

2.) I have heard that the preposition "con" is hardly contracted with the articles (con + il = col) because it sounds funny to the native speaker. So, does this sound "strange" to those of you who speak Italian? Also, would it be o.k. to say "con un collo lungo?"

Check out this link
http://www.impariamo.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=163


3.) Now, my hardest question and biggest stumbling block I have in Italian: THE PRONOUNS!
OGGI LA NONNA GLI HA REGALATO UN PANDA.

I understand that this would translate as "Today the Grandma gave him a Panda."
When I read this I have no problem understanding that GLI is the boy.

But, look at this next example in the book:
IL MIO CANE BUBU È UN ESPERTO PILOTA. GUIDA LA MIA AUTOMOBILE DA CORSA. IO LO SEGUO PERCHÈ QUALCHE VOLTA FINISCE CONTO UN ALBERO.
Here we have the same concept in English, the pronouns in both sentences are "him." However, one sentence says GLI and the other LO.
The grandma gave him a Panda
I follow him because. . .
How can an English speaker learn when to use either GLI or LO when in English it is always the same (wether direct or indirect)?
I mean, is there a foolproof way for me to learn how BESIDES having to think every time if this is a "direct object" or an "indirect object?"
Does anyone have any clever learning tricks along these lines?

Check this link

http://www.impariamo.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=160

Roby
giasone
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Location: Yorkshire, UK

Post by giasone »

Hi Spanky,

I'm fairly new to all this so please take what I say with a pinch of salt, but thought I'd share a couple of ideas. I hope they're at least vaguely right! :)

1. I don't know for sure but I think you need the "a" because the construct goes something like "the pizza is pleasing to Jason", so you need the "to Jason" bit something like"a Jason piace la pizza"

2. I've read that too somewhere, but the language CD I've got has "col" all over the place so it must be OK :) I've not heard the other varients though on the CD (colla, colle and whatnot). They seem to go for "con la" instead

3. I get a bit confused by all this "gli" business as well. I don't think there's any way of getting away from all the direct and indirect object business. However, a little rule of thumb that works for me (at least so far) is that if you can stick a "to" in front of the "him" then it's indirect so go for "gli", otherwise it's direct so go for "lo".

For example:

"I give him the book"
is the same as
"I give TO him the book" or "I give the book TO him": you can put "to" there, so go for "gli"
gli do il libro

However:

"I follow him"
You can't stick a "to" in as "I follow to him" doesn't make sense. So go for "lo"
lo seguo

I hope I haven't confused things even more!! :)

Jason
Devery
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Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2007 11:38 pm
Location: Florida

Post by Devery »

Grazie a tutti per i lezioni.
Allora, a raccontare. . .
1.) Both ways are correct, "A luca piace" e "luca Piace." The only difference is the emphasis tra "to Luca is pleasing" or "Luca likes."

2.) I still would like to hear from a native speaker if they use col, colla, colle or con + il, la, etc. invece?

3.) I thought Giasone's example helped the most (although ladybird and Roby said the same thing! :D ). I like the thought of maybe focusing on the "to" him.
Are these correct?

Gli parlo ogni giorno.
Lo seguo al stazione.
Gli ho portato dei fiori per dare sua sorella.
Non capiscolo.
Gli chiedo se gli piace l'italiano
Lo conosco. .. .or. . .conoscolo??

etc. Do these look good? This might help me immensely. Of course for now I will have to stop and think before I speak!


What about for le donne?
Do you say Le for "to her" and La for "her?"
Last edited by Devery on Wed Jun 27, 2007 1:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ember
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Location: Urbino

Post by Ember »

Ciao Spanky... in realtà "a Luca piace" o "Luca piace" sono molto diversi!
A Luca piace means "Luca likes... something", while "Luca piace" means that he is liked by other people. "Luca piace a Marta" means that Luca is liked by Marta, so that Marta likes Luca. "Luca piace" means that Luca is a guy who is usually very liked by people.

"Col" is ok, while for example "colla" sounds a little too "old style" :D so we say "con la".
Remember that col is an articulate preposition formed by "con + il" and not con + un. About con+ un, you an use it, but in this case you need "il" as an article. You would have used un if you wanted to say "una giraffa con un collo così lungo da far paura" :D if you just want to say that the giraffe has a long neck, then use il, since it's obiouvs that the giraffe has only one neck :)

Gli can have 2 meanings: "to him" and also the article for the second plural person.

Conoscolo is not ok, you have to say "lo conosco" or in some cases "conosco lui". Lo always goes before the verb. After the verb, you have to use "lui".
The sentences are correct, except "Lo chiedo se si piace l'italiano" --> use GLI (gli chiedo se gli piace l'italiano)

Gli answers to the question "a chi"? And lo answers to the question "chi?".
Chiedo.. a chi? A lui. So: GLI chiedo.
Amo... chi? Lui. So: LO amo.
Last edited by Ember on Wed Jun 27, 2007 1:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
*** homo sum: humani nihil a me alienum puto ***
Devery
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Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2007 11:38 pm
Location: Florida

Post by Devery »

Allora, sono soddisfatto con le risposte from lesson 1 :wink: Andiamo la prossima?


Lezione 2
Dictionary (if you don't know a word)
http://www.wordreference.com/enit/

IL MIO FRATELLINO CON I PENNARELLI HA SPORCATO LE PARETI DELLA MIA CAMERETTA. ORA L’IMBIANCHINO LE DEVE RIDIPINGERE. TRA GIALLO, BIANCO, AZZURRO, IO NON SO CHE TINTA SCEGLIERE.

1.) Is ora interchangeable with adesso?

2.) What pronoun is the Le and what does it represent?

To me it represents the "walls." Kind of like "the painter now has to paint them (the walls) over again." But I am not sure.

Grazie
Last edited by Devery on Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Peter
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Post by Peter »

Hi Spanky

Ora and adesso are interchangeable, although I see ora more frequently.

Le in the context in which it is used refers to the walls - it is the feminine plural definite object pronoun, and must be used because, as you will have noted, the previous sentence refers to LE pareti (walls).

No doubt, also, you know that where a feminine gender noun ends in e - like parete - the plural ends in 'i', but I'm including this as others who are very new to the language may not know this.
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keithatengagedthinking
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Location: Rome, Italy

Post by keithatengagedthinking »

With respect to Lesson 1 and your questions about the direct/indirect object pronouns...

When I started to learn them I would write simple sentences to help me use them. You might want to try make some simple sentences so you can learn the differences, substituting out nouns for pronouns.
Devery
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Location: Florida

Post by Devery »

Peter wrote:Hi Spanky

Ora and adesso are interchangeable, although I see ora more frequently.

Le in the context in which it is used refers to the walls - it is the feminine plural definite object pronoun, and must be used because, as you will have noted, the previous sentence refers to LE pareti (walls).

No doubt, also, you know that where a feminine gender noun ends in e - like parete - the plural ends in 'i', but I'm including this as others who are very new to the language may not know this.
I figured "le" referred to the walls.
But answer me this. . .
What if the subject was "la parete" instead of "le pareti."
Would the sentence then read:
ORA L’IMBIANCHINO LA DEVE RIDIPINGERE.

Or, what if it was "il muro?"
Would it then be:
ORA L’IMBIANCHINO LO DEVE RIDIPINGERE.

One more?
What if we were speaking of "i muri," would it then read:
ORA L’IMBIANCHINO LI DEVE RIDIPINGERE.

Grazie
Last edited by Devery on Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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keithatengagedthinking
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Post by keithatengagedthinking »

Yup, that looks good to me :)

You mean the subject of the previous sentence, right, that first mentions the walls which then becomes the direct object in the second sentence.

Except that...la pareta is not a word: La parete, le pareti

Looks like you are getting the hang of it!
Devery
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Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2007 11:38 pm
Location: Florida

Post by Devery »

keithatengagedthinking wrote:Yup, that looks good to me :)

You mean the subject of the previous sentence, right, that first mentions the walls which then becomes the direct object in the second sentence.

Except that...la pareta is not a word: La parete, le pareti

Looks like you are getting the hang of it!
I corrected my mistake. Thanks Keith (tutti), I might be "getting the hang of it (imagine Italians trying to figure out that expression :) )." I think it is a little easier than I thought, however, there are more forms of pronouns that confuse me. And I will get to those later. :wink:
Roby
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Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2004 2:06 pm

Post by Roby »

spanky wrote:

I corrected my mistake. Thanks Keith (tutti), I might be "getting the hang of it (imagine Italians trying to figure out that expression :) )." I think it is a little easier than I thought, however, there are more forms of pronouns that confuse me. And I will get to those later. :wink:
Spanky,

The phrase for "getting the hang of" or "getting the hang of it " in Italian is :

imparare a fare qualcosa

imparare a farLO


Roby
Devery
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Location: Florida

Post by Devery »

Lezione 3
Dictionary (if you don't know a word)
http://www.wordreference.com/enit/

I.
IERI SERA A CASA MIA SONO VENUTI DUE AMICI DI PAPÀ PER INVITARLO A PESCA. PAPÀ PORTERÀ ANCHE ME: DOMENICA ANDREMO TUTTI INSIEME A PESCARE LE TROTE. DOMENICA NE ABBIAMO PESCATE QUATTRO. PAPÀ HA CUCINATO LE TROTE.

1.) What does "ne" mean in this sentence and to what does it refer?

II.
Also this:
QUANDO LA MAMMA PREPARA LA TORTA MI PIACE AIUTARLA. IMPASTO LA FARINA CON LE UOVA, IL LATTE, LO ZUCCHERO E IL LIEVITO. SE C’È ANCHE IL CIOCCOLATO A PEZZETTI IO NE RUBO UN PÒ.

1.) what does "ne" mean in this instance and/or is it an idiomatic with the rest of the thought "ne rubo un po'?"
Roby
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Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2004 2:06 pm

Post by Roby »

spanky wrote:Lezione 3
Dictionary (if you don't know a word)
http://www.wordreference.com/enit/

I.
IERI SERA A CASA MIA SONO VENUTI DUE AMICI DI PAPÀ PER INVITARLO A PESCA. PAPÀ PORTERÀ ANCHE ME: DOMENICA ANDREMO TUTTI INSIEME A PESCARE LE TROTE. DOMENICA NE ABBIAMO PESCATE QUATTRO. PAPÀ HA CUCINATO LE TROTE.

1.) What does "ne" mean in this sentence and to what does it refer?

II.
Also this:
QUANDO LA MAMMA PREPARA LA TORTA MI PIACE AIUTARLA. IMPASTO LA FARINA CON LE UOVA, IL LATTE, LO ZUCCHERO E IL LIEVITO. SE C’È ANCHE IL CIOCCOLATO A PEZZETTI IO NE RUBO UN PÒ.

1.) what does "ne" mean in this instance and/or is it an idiomatic with the rest of the thought "ne rubo un po'?"

check out this link
http://www.impariamo.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=183

Roby

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