Perché?

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Netminder30
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Perché?

Post by Netminder30 » Wed Nov 21, 2007 2:45 am

Ciao, tutti!

C'è qualcuno che mi possa dire perché l'accento in parole come "perché", "benché" e "affinché" è diverso dall'accento in altre parole come "città", "più" e "così"? Non potevo trovare una ragione nei mie libri.

Grazie mille in anticipo per le vostre risposte! (Apprezzerei molto anche se qualcuno potesse correggere la mia scrittura.) :D

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polideuce
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Post by polideuce » Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:55 am

Direttamente dal sito dell'Accademia della Crusca:

"In genere, quando si scrive, non si fa attenzione al tipo di accento, e lo si segna come un trattino obliquo da appoggiare distrattamente sulla vocale finale. Ma nell'uso veramente corretto le cose non stanno così: con l'accento acuto (´) indichiamo la e chiusa di perché, con l'accento grave (`) indichiamo la e aperta di caffè. Se vogliamo che il nostro scritto sia impeccabile, dobbiamo rispettare queste differenze: soprattutto se non scriviamo a mano, ma usiamo una macchina per scrivere o il computer, distinguiamo fra la é e la è: sulla tastiera c'è un tasto apposta per questo!"
( http://www.accademiadellacrusca.it/faq/ ... &ctg_id=93 nel link vi sono anche altre cose interessanti)

L'uso dell'accento grave o acuto è per una questione fonetica per riuscire a distinguere due suoni diversi, altre volte un accento cambia il significato della parola (ma questo lo saprai già :) )

p.s.: C'è qualcuno che mi possa dire perché l'accento di "perché", "benché" e "affinché" è diverso dall'accento di "città", "più" e "così"?
(ho accorciato la frase, c'era qualcosa che non mi suonava corretto ma non ho capito esattamente cosa...forse la ripetizione di "in parole come"...)
Nei mie libri non ne ho trovata la ragione.
(l'uso dell'imperfetto mi ha fatto pensare che qualcosa ti ha impedito di cercare nei tuoi libri, ma credo che invece tu abbia cercato senza risultato e quindi ho cambiato l'imperfetto con il passato prossimo, e ho messo "nei miei libri" davanti perché mi suonava meglio, ma credo che "non ne ho trovata la ragione nei miei libri" sia ugualmente corretta.
Le mie conoscenze di grammatica sono particolarmente arrugginite, quindi per le correzioni è meglio se attendi altri commenti :) )

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Post by riga » Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:11 pm

Accento grave o accento acuto?

L'accento grave è quello con la pronuncia aperta: caffè, canapè, cioè...Come grafia, è inclinato a sinistra.

L'accento acuto è quello con pronuncia chiusa:
perché, ventitré, poté. Come grafia, è inclinato a destra.

Le vocali A I O U vogliono sempre l'accento grave in fine di parola.
Quindi: andrò in città, farò così.

La vocale E vuole l'accento grave:


* come verbo essere: è
* nei nomi di origine straniera: caffè, narghilè, tè...
* nei nomi propri: Noè, Giosuè...
* nelle parole: cioè, ahimè, ohimè, piè

La vocale E vuole l'accento acuto:

* nel passato remoto: poté, ripeté...
* nei composti di che: perché, affinché, benché...
* nei composti di tre: ventitré...
* nei composti di re: viceré...
* nei monosillabi: sé (pronome), né, ché...
* nella parola mercé.

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timLA
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Grazie!

Post by timLA » Wed Nov 21, 2007 11:34 pm

Grazie Polideuce e Riga!
Per la prima volta, credo che abbia capito!
Mi sembra che il punto critico sia il suono della parola,
non una regola oscura grammaticale.
Grazie di nuovo!
Una mucca dice all'altra "Hai letto della "mucca pazza"? L'altra dice "Sì, ho sentito. Che fortuna che io sono un pinguino!

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Re: Perché?

Post by giro » Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:44 am

Netminder30 wrote:Ciao, tutti!

C'è qualcuno che mi possa dire perché l'accento in parole come "perché", "benché" e "affinché" è diverso dall'accento in altre parole come "città", "più" e "così"? Non potevo trovare una ragione nei mie libri.

Grazie mille in anticipo per le vostre risposte! (Apprezzerei molto anche se qualcuno potesse correggere la mia scrittura.) :D
Hi Netminder. Since Polideuce's superb answer was in Italian and I gather you are a beginner, let me clarify one small point in English.

é rhymes with day
è rhymes with yeah

One other thing, outside of Georgia, day and yeah and one-syllable words. :lol:
Per piacere, correggete i miei errori in italiano. Grazie mille in anticipo.

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Post by Netminder30 » Sat Nov 24, 2007 6:38 am

Grazie mille, Polideuce, Riga e Giro per le risposte complete ed informative. Siete molto gentili! :D

Giro, you perfectly anticipated the next question I was going ask. I did not know the difference between the open and closed pronunciations for "e".

I have noticed while listening to my Italian language CD courses, that some of the speakers seem to pronounce the final "e" in a word with an "ay" sound, while others pronounce the final "e" with an "eh" sound. I thought this was due to differences in the regional pronunciations. I was not aware that the accent played any role in determing how the "e" should be pronounced. To my beginner's ear, I really didn't hear a difference between the "e" in words like perché and caffè. I obviously must listen more carefully.

As for the words "day" and "yeah" being one syllable words -- I was indeed aware of this as I was born and raised in the Northeastern U.S. and am a Georgia transplant! :D

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Post by giro » Sun Nov 25, 2007 4:56 am

Netminder, you bring up a good point. Not all "eh"s are equal. the one in caffè is pretty close to rhyming with day, but not quite. Note, in English the word day ends in an "eee" sound. You have the long a followed by "eee". like ayeee. Not so much in Italian. Try to do just the long a and clip off most of the eee.
Per piacere, correggete i miei errori in italiano. Grazie mille in anticipo.

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Post by Carlo » Sun Nov 25, 2007 8:48 am

Try listening to the sound clips on this guide to Italian pronunciation:

http://www.askoxford.com/languages/it/t ... n/?view=uk

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Netminder30
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Post by Netminder30 » Sun Nov 25, 2007 4:44 pm

Grazie per il link, Carlo.

I can hear the difference between the closed and open "e" sounds, but they strike my untrained ear as being somewhat subtle.

Are there regional differences in the way Italians pronounce the same "e" sound? For example, I seem to hear some speakers clip or shorten the "e" sound at the end of infinitives, while others use a more elongated sound. It may just be my imagination though! :?

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Post by giro » Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:10 pm

Netminder30 wrote:Grazie per il link, Carlo.

I can hear the difference between the closed and open "e" sounds, but they strike my untrained ear as being somewhat subtle.

Are there regional differences in the way Italians pronounce the same "e" sound? For example, I seem to hear some speakers clip or shorten the "e" sound at the end of infinitives, while others use a more elongated sound. It may just be my imagination though! :?
Waiting for Carlo's, or one of the other parlante madrelinge's answer, which I will bet you a root beer will be "yes". But another 2 cents from me, I watch Italian tv daily, and the same person will change their pronunciation quite a bit from one sentence to the next on these terminal, accented "e"s .

But this sorta relates to something I've been wondering about: tu forms of short verbs, like stai and hai. Usually you hear "sty" and "eye" but sometimes "stay" and "-ay" and sometimes even "stayeee" and "-ayee". Daniele Massetti on RAI (since Italians pronounce acronyms as words, "RAI" is another example). My question would be, what up wid dat?
Per piacere, correggete i miei errori in italiano. Grazie mille in anticipo.

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Post by Carlo » Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:55 pm

Netminder30 wrote:
I can hear the difference between the closed and open "e" sounds, but they strike my untrained ear as being somewhat subtle.
Yes, you're right, my British/American friends here tell me they can barely hear the difference between open and closed "e". However I can assure you that we do perceive them as two completely different sounds, just like (for you) the short and long vowels in "pill" and "peel", which again sound much the same to many Italians.
Just to give you an idea, an Italian would be able to tell just from my using an open rather than a closed "e" in a single word that I'm from the South

Are there regional differences in the way Italians pronounce the same "e" sound? For example, I seem to hear some speakers clip or shorten the "e" sound at the end of infinitives, while others use a more elongated sound. It may just be my imagination though! :?
Well, as I said there are regional differences in the distribution of è (open) and é(closed), as well as open and closed "o". The pronunciation you will find in dictionaries is the one used in Tuscany.

But you ask about differences in pronouncing the same sound (while é and è are different sounds). Well, I guess that may vary slightly, too. For example in some areas è is very open.

As for infinitives there are two separate issues at stake:

1) Infinitives often lose their final "e" before other infinitives and past participles:

saper parlare
aver finito

This is standard, non-regional Italian

2) I don't know whether this applies throughout the South but certainly in my area (Campania), because of the influence of the Neapolitan dialect (in which all final vowels are reduced to a "schwa" - as in English) many people with a strong regional accent don't pronounce final vowels as clearly as people from the North or Central Italy would.

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timLA
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Southern vowels

Post by timLA » Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:26 pm

Hey Carlo, excellent explanation as usual.

Could you give us two or three words (??Common words) with the open and closed "e" which would CLEARLY differentiate a person as from the south or the north?

Thanks!
Una mucca dice all'altra "Hai letto della "mucca pazza"? L'altra dice "Sì, ho sentito. Che fortuna che io sono un pinguino!

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Re: Southern vowels

Post by Carlo » Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:51 pm

timLA wrote:
Could you give us two or three words (??Common words) with the open and closed "e" which would CLEARLY differentiate a person as from the south or the north?
Well, the best-known is "perché", which is pronounced with an open e [è] in Milan and with a closed e [é] in the centre and south.

Another well-known one is "pesca" which is pronounced "pésca" when it means "fishing" and "pèsca" when meaning "peach" in the centre and (I believe) in the North. Where I live it's "pésca" in both senses. When one of the purists at WR suggested all Italians should make this distinction I pointed out to him that if I started saying "pèsca" overnight my friends (and my greengrocer!) would think I was either odd or affected (or trying to be funny) :)

Also, words ending in the diminuitive suffixes -etto and -etta (baretto, casetta) are pronounced with a closed "e" in the centre and north but with an open "e" in Campania (I can't speak for the whole south).

Another striking difference is the pronunciation of intervocalic -s-. In the North it's always voiced, in the south it's always unvoiced. In Tuscany it varies from word to word: [kasa] but [roza] ("z" standing for a voiced "s", not for a "z"). So:

North: casa [kaza], rosa [roza]

Tuscany: [kasa], [roza]

South: [kasa], [rosa]

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Re: Southern vowels

Post by giro » Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:32 pm

carlo wrote:
timLA wrote:
Could you give us two or three words (??Common words) with the open and closed "e" which would CLEARLY differentiate a person as from the south or the north?
Well, the best-known is "perché", which is pronounced with an open e [è] in Milan and with a closed e [é] in the centre and south.

Another well-known one is "pesca" which is pronounced "pésca" when it means "fishing" and "pèsca" when meaning "peach" in the centre and (I believe) in the North. Where I live it's "pésca" in both senses. When one of the purists at WR suggested all Italians should make this distinction I pointed out to him that if I started saying "pèsca" overnight my friends (and my greengrocer!) would think I was either odd or affected (or trying to be funny) :)

Also, words ending in the diminuitive suffixes -etto and -etta (baretto, casetta) are pronounced with a closed "e" in the centre and north but with an open "e" in Campania (I can't speak for the whole south).

Another striking difference is the pronunciation of intervocalic -s-. In the North it's always voiced, in the south it's always unvoiced. In Tuscany it varies from word to word: [kasa] but [roza] ("z" standing for a voiced "s", not for a "z"). So:

North: casa [kaza], rosa [roza]

Tuscany: [kasa], [roza]

South: [kasa], [rosa]
Excellent!! Thanks Carlo.

How about softening up the soft "C"s? Like making Ciao come out more like Ssciao? Come Daniela Massetti sul RAI tv.
Per piacere, correggete i miei errori in italiano. Grazie mille in anticipo.

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Netminder30
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Post by Netminder30 » Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:43 am

Carlo,

Thank you very much for the great explanations and examples of the different "e" sounds.

It will be a challenge to master the nuances of the different pronunciations. I suspect I will ultimately adopt the pronunciations I hear most often. That will leave me at the mercy of recordings for now because I have not yet had the opportunity to converse with native Italian speakers. (Hopefully, Skype and less inhibition on my part (:oops:) will remedy this!)

Regarding when one must or can omit the "e" at the end of an infinitive -- what are the rules for that? Does omitting the "e" apply only to certain verbs? In what situations is this done? Is it something a speaker may employ at their option or is it mandatory? Thanks!

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