negative double verb saying

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dmj120
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negative double verb saying

Post by dmj120 » Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:44 pm

I have a little question about I don't think I speak Italian good.

Non penso parlare bene italiano. o Penso non parlo bene italiano. I know if there are 2 verbs together, the first is conjugated and the seccond is left in its infinitive form, ie devo andare.

But what about with "non"? My translation may not be correct, but hopefully you understand what I'm talking about.

Grazie
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Peter
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Post by Peter » Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:27 pm

Josh

I think you'll find you need to say

Penso CHE io non parlI (present subjunctive) bene italiano.

It is almost always the case when you use pensare in this context you need to use che. In such a circumstance you need to use the subjunctive and therefore the personal pronoun.

You can also say pensare di, as in

Sto pensando di andare al cinema stasera.

The alternative to that is to say:

Penso che andrò al cinema stasera.

(The future subjunctive tense does not exist.)

Hope this helps. :) :)

dmj120
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Post by dmj120 » Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:34 pm

Grazie mille Peter. Your post is very helpful!!
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Family, dogs, bike, work ----- in that order.

Mr. Kawasaki gave us 12k rpm, its criminal not to use them :!: :P :mrgreen: :wink:

Roby
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Post by Roby » Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:33 pm

Peter wrote:The alternative to that is to say:

Penso che andrò al cinema stasera.

(The future subjunctive tense does not exist.)

Hope this helps. :) :)
Peter, Actually, it should be

Penso che vada al cinema stasera.

Present subjunctive for andare is:

io vada, tu vada, lui/lei/Lei vada, noi andiamo, voi andiate, loro vadano
Roby
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Post by jade » Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:05 am

Roby wrote:
Peter, Actually, it should be

Penso che vada al cinema stasera.

Present subjunctive for andare is:

io vada, tu vada, lui/lei/Lei vada, noi andiamo, voi andiate, loro vadano
Roby, If I tell someone my future plan for the coming summer, once I use "penso", do I have to use present subjunctive even I describe a future action? Grazie.

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disegno
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Post by disegno » Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:48 am

jade wrote:If I tell someone my future plan for the coming summer, once I use "penso", do I have to use present subjunctive even I describe a future action? Grazie.
If you are speaking about yourself in the subjunctive mode you would use this construction:

Penso di andare a New York l'estate prossima.

If you are speaking about someone else in the subjunctive mode you would use this construction:

Penso che lui vada a New York l'estate prossima.

or you could use the future tense with the subjunctive.

Penso che lui andrà a New York l'estate prossima.
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ladybird
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Post by ladybird » Fri Feb 01, 2008 12:25 pm

I have been taught that when referring to oneself using the subjunctive mood, it is "penso di + infinitive, credo di + infinitive"..

Are there any situations when this changes?

Did that make sense? :? Probably not..
Life is for living and learning.

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keithatengagedthinking
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Post by keithatengagedthinking » Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:33 pm

You may also use the present subjunctive for the future too, although this is considered more colloquial and probably occurs more in conversation than in writing:

Spero che torneranno presto. (future)
Spero che tornino presto. (present subjunctive)
I hope that they will return soon.

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Peter
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Post by Peter » Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:50 pm

Roby wrote:
Peter wrote:The alternative to that is to say:

Penso che andrò al cinema stasera.

(The future subjunctive tense does not exist.)

Hope this helps. :) :)
Peter, Actually, it should be

Penso che vada al cinema stasera.

Present subjunctive for andare is:

io vada, tu vada, lui/lei/Lei vada, noi andiamo, voi andiate, loro vadano
I know what the present subjunctive of andare is.

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keithatengagedthinking
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Post by keithatengagedthinking » Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:59 pm

ladybird wrote:I have been taught that when referring to oneself using the subjunctive mood, it is "penso di + infinitive, credo di + infinitive"..

Are there any situations when this changes?

Did that make sense? :? Probably not..
You're right, ladybird. Whenever you are referring to yourself, it's always penso di + infinitive, etc.

I can't think of when the situation would change.

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polideuce
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Post by polideuce » Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:16 pm

"Penso che vada al cinema stasera."
...secondo me come frase suona male, mi sembra che "vada" sia sbagliato.
Dato che l'azione di "andare al cinema" si compirà in un tempo futuro rispetto a quando la sto pensando, ritengo che sia corretto l'uso del futuro: "penso che stasera andrò al cinema" (o "penso che andrò al cinema stasera").
Suonerebbe a mio avviso bene anche "penso di andare al cinema stasera".
Se sto formulando una domanda, mantenendo il contesto, allora uso il congiuntivo: "pensi ch'io vada al cinema stasera?"...

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Post by Roby » Sat Feb 02, 2008 2:35 am

jade wrote:
Roby wrote:
Peter, Actually, it should be

Penso che vada al cinema stasera.

Present subjunctive for andare is:

io vada, tu vada, lui/lei/Lei vada, noi andiamo, voi andiate, loro vadano
Roby, If I tell someone my future plan for the coming summer, once I use "penso", do I have to use present subjunctive even I describe a future action? Grazie.

Melissa wrote:
If you are speaking about yourself in the subjunctive mode you would use this construction:

Penso di andare a New York l'estate prossima.

If you are speaking about someone else in the subjunctive mode you would use this construction:

Penso che lui vada a New York l'estate prossima.

or you could use the future tense with the subjunctive.

Penso che lui andrà a New York l'estate prossima.
http://www.gwc.org.uk/ModernLang/hotpot ... tives.html

Commonest mistakes when using the subjunctive.

These are:

1. Using the subjunctive when you don't need it. Look at the sections above and note when it is not required; it is usually only needed after certain conjunctions when the subjects in the two clauses are different.

2. Using the wrong tense.
There are only four tenses which have a subjunctive: present, imperfect, perfect, pluperfect.

Rule: If the verb in the main clause is present, future, or imperative, use the present or perfect subjunctive.
If the verb in the main clause is past, or conditional, use the imperfect or pluperfect subjunctive




From Oggi in Italia

Le correlazione dei tempi con il congiuntivo

Main Clause
Present or Future

Dependent che clause

Simulataneous or Future action
Congiuntivo present

Prior action
Congiuntivo passato


Main Clause

Imperfect
Passato Prossimo
Trapassato
Passato Remoto
Condizionale

Dependent che clause

Simulataneous or Future action

imperfetto del congiuntivo

Prior action

trapassato del congiuntivo

Personally, I have never seen or heard the use of either present subjunctive or the use of the future tense with a future action. I was taught the above.
Roby
"Per raro che sia, il vero amore e' meno raro della vera amicizia."

"As rare as true love is, it is not as rare as true friendship."
- François de La Rochefoucauld

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Devery
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Post by Devery » Sat Feb 02, 2008 3:40 am

Roby wrote:
Peter wrote:The alternative to that is to say:

Penso che andrò al cinema stasera.

(The future subjunctive tense does not exist.)

Hope this helps. :) :)
Peter, Actually, it should be

Penso che vada al cinema stasera.

Present subjunctive for andare is:

io vada, tu vada, lui/lei/Lei vada, noi andiamo, voi andiate, loro vadano
Actually, Peter is right, Roby. I notice this a lot from you. Just because there is a "penso" or a "credo" does not mean that the subjunctive is automatically used. Peter's sentence is perfect in that either "Penso che andrò/vado al cinema stasera" could be used.
To me, "Penso che vada al cinema stasera" is not correct (in this instance) and actually sounds clumsy. But that's just me. :P
Last edited by Devery on Sat Feb 02, 2008 5:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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polideuce
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Post by polideuce » Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:43 pm

...la frase "penso che vada al cinema" è corretta solo se mi sto riferendo a una terza persona e non a me stesso.
Ad esempio:
A: "cosa pensi che faccia Tizio stasera?"
B:"penso che vada al cinema"
Ma se sono io ad andare al cinema allora dirò: "penso che andrò al cinema stasera".
Quindi in sé la frase è corretta solo se mi riferisco a una terza persona, ma non era questo il caso riportato nel post ed è per questo che mi suonava male...

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Devery
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Post by Devery » Sat Feb 02, 2008 2:37 pm

Yes! That makes sense. Thanks.

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