Use of "non"

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giasone
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Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 11:27 pm
Location: Yorkshire, UK

Use of "non"

Post by giasone » Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:17 am

Hi Everyone,

Sorry this post is in English, but my question's a bit vague and I'm not sure how to phrase it. It's to do with a use of "non" which I'm sure I've read here and there but can't find any good examples just now to show what I mean.

Let me make up a random sentence. It might not make much sense but I think illustrates the point. Something like:

Non gusteranno la torta finché non abbiano visto loro fratello.

Which I think means "They won't taste the cake until they have seen their brother". It's the second "non" which I'm not sure about. Have I used it correctly here? If so, what exactly is it for and when do you use it?

This might not be a good example but I'm sure I've seen these extra "non" words where we wouldn't put them in English. Do they work as an "intensifier", or like a "double negative" or something? Are they optional??

Or have I imagined the whole thing and so I'm just confused :-) :-) :-)

Sorry for rambling I hope it makes sense. Thanks as ever for your help,

Jason
Please feel free to correct any rubbish

Roby
Posts: 3850
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2004 2:06 pm

Post by Roby » Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:38 am

Jason ,

Take a look at this link

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthre ... t=finch%E9

Carlo expains the negative expression finche' non which is used in Italian and not in English.

I hope that it helps
Roby
"Per raro che sia, il vero amore e' meno raro della vera amicizia."

"As rare as true love is, it is not as rare as true friendship."
- François de La Rochefoucauld

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Peter
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Location: Horsham, West Sussex, England

Post by Peter » Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:23 pm

Great link Roby, but it flags up what a minefield some grammar constructions can be! Very interesting read.

Roby
Posts: 3850
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2004 2:06 pm

Post by Roby » Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:09 pm

Jason and Peter,

Here are some other explanations Meno che

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=226965

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=393548

They are called congiunzioni eccettuative

http://italian-grammar.italianforyou.co ... uative.php

http://it.wikibooks.org/wiki/Italiano/G ... ongiuntivo

Congiunzioni subordinative

http://italian-grammar.italianforyou.co ... native.php


Finche' non explanation
http://books.google.com/books?id=1VdIfd ... YJ4E&hl=en

http://books.google.com/books?id=LhwqO0 ... Xlgo&hl=en

Explanation of time 36.1 Read whole section. This has a lt of helpful information. There are several pages , but read all.
http://books.google.com/books?id=1VdIfd ... #PPT339,M1


Preterite Tense --Passato Remoto

http://books.google.com/books?id=sccFre ... 2ETY&hl=en


Other information

http://www.homolaicus.com/linguaggi/sin ... t/1037.htm

I hope that this is helpful.
Roby
"Per raro che sia, il vero amore e' meno raro della vera amicizia."

"As rare as true love is, it is not as rare as true friendship."
- François de La Rochefoucauld

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giasone
Posts: 86
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 11:27 pm
Location: Yorkshire, UK

Post by giasone » Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:57 pm

Hi Roby,

Wow, loads of links, it will take me all week to read these! :-)

So far I've only read the first one. Absolutely spot on, thanks so much for providing the link. How do you find them?? So it's the "finchè" and the like that are behind the "extra non"! I knew I'd seen them lurking.

And thanks to you too Carlo (and friends), fantastic detailed answer... conveniently provided for me years before I even asked the question... how's that for service! :-)

Thanks for all the other links too, there's plenty to get my teeth into there.

Cheers

Jason
Please feel free to correct any rubbish

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