what's the difference?

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samuel
Posts: 32
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2007 3:41 am

what's the difference?

Post by samuel » Sun Sep 06, 2009 10:57 am

Hello,anyone!

I have some questions here,could you help me:

1.Non so se Mario domani verra da te.
2.Non so se Mario domani venga da te.
3.Non so se Mario domani verrebbe da te.
4.Non so se Mario ora venda (stia venendo) da te.
5.Non so se Mario ieri sia venuto da te.
6.Non so se Mario ieri venisse da te.
7.Non so se Mario ieri sarebbe venuto da te.

what is the difference between the above sentences?

Please let me know,thank you!

biagio
Posts: 117
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2008 9:29 am

Re: what's the difference?

Post by biagio » Sun Sep 06, 2009 5:14 pm

samuel wrote:Hello,anyone!

I have some questions here,could you help me:

1.Non so se Mario domani verra da te.
2.Non so se Mario domani venga da te.
3.Non so se Mario domani verrebbe da te.
4.Non so se Mario ora venda (stia venendo) da te.
5.Non so se Mario ieri sia venuto da te.
6.Non so se Mario ieri venisse da te.
7.Non so se Mario ieri sarebbe venuto da te.

what is the difference between the above sentences?

N.1: correct, except for the lacking accent on "verrà";
n.2: incorrect, unless you use a different verb, "dubitare", for instance: dubito che M. domani venga da te;
n.3: correct in the eighteenth century Italian, but nowadays old fashioned;
n.4: "venda" is definitely wrong (unless you mean "vendere/to sell", of which case "venda" is a subjunctive form); "stia venendo" is correct, but the sentence is a little bit awkward, in my opinion;
n.5: correct, but in everyday speech you're most likely to hear the indicative tense used (non so se M. ieri è venuto da te)
n. 6: incorret;
n.7: correct, but in a hypothetical sentence only: Non so se M. ieri sarebbe venuto da te, se avesse saputo che volevi picchiarlo.


Please let me know,thank you!

samuel
Posts: 32
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2007 3:41 am

Re: what's the difference?

Post by samuel » Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:18 am

Thank you for your kindly reply.

These sentences are from my italian book,in which the author wants to tell us how to use the tenses,especially the combine of two tenses.so I would like to know the difference of the mentioned sentences.for exsample,when we say "Non so se Mario domani verrà da te" and in which condition we can say"Non so se M domani verrebbe da te"?

I don't know if you understand me. :) thank you again.



N.1: correct, except for the lacking accent on "verrà";
n.2: incorrect, unless you use a different verb, "dubitare", for instance: dubito che M. domani venga da te;
n.3: correct in the eighteenth century Italian, but nowadays old fashioned;
n.4: "venda" is definitely wrong (unless you mean "vendere/to sell", of which case "venda" is a subjunctive form); "stia venendo" is correct, but the sentence is a little bit awkward, in my opinion;
n.5: correct, but in everyday speech you're most likely to hear the indicative tense used (non so se M. ieri è venuto da te)
n. 6: incorret;
n.7: correct, but in a hypothetical sentence only: Non so se M. ieri sarebbe venuto da te, se avesse saputo che volevi picchiarlo.

biagio
Posts: 117
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2008 9:29 am

Post by biagio » Wed Sep 09, 2009 1:05 pm

1.Non so se Mario domani verrà da te.

Maybe Mario would come, maybe he wouldn't: the sentence is about the uncertainty as to the fact that Mario will be coming or not.

3.Non so se Mario domani verrebbe da te.

As I already said in another post of mine, this one is rather old-fashioned (if not incorrect): I'd say it has the same meaning as the above.

4.Non so se Mario ora stia venendo da te.

In colloquial Italian one is supposed to use the indicative, here: non so se Mario sta venendo da te; stia venendo is far too literary and overly correct from a grammarian's point of view.

5.Non so se Mario ieri sia venuto da te.

Ditto.

7.Non so se Mario ieri sarebbe venuto da te.

This last one can't stand alone, as I've already explained in the above mentioned post.

Hope this helps.

Forgive my English.

samuel
Posts: 32
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2007 3:41 am

Post by samuel » Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:40 am

I think I have known something about them. :) to tell you the truth, It is too difficult for me to understand the tenses of italian, :( ,but,if I don't know them,I find that I can not read anything in italian.should an italian learn the tenses too? I think they can talk to each other without thinking any tesnses,right?

I wish there are someways to use italian without learning tenses.
biagio wrote:1.Non so se Mario domani verrà da te.

Maybe Mario would come, maybe he wouldn't: the sentence is about the uncertainty as to the fact that Mario will be coming or not.

3.Non so se Mario domani verrebbe da te.

As I already said in another post of mine, this one is rather old-fashioned (if not incorrect): I'd say it has the same meaning as the above.

4.Non so se Mario ora stia venendo da te.

In colloquial Italian one is supposed to use the indicative, here: non so se Mario sta venendo da te; stia venendo is far too literary and overly correct from a grammarian's point of view.

5.Non so se Mario ieri sia venuto da te.

Ditto.

7.Non so se Mario ieri sarebbe venuto da te.

This last one can't stand alone, as I've already explained in the above mentioned post.

Hope this helps.

Forgive my English.

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Peter
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Location: Horsham, West Sussex, England

Post by Peter » Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:53 am

samuel wrote:I think I have known something about them. :) to tell you the truth, It is too difficult for me to understand the tenses of italian, :( ,but,if I don't know them,I find that I can not read anything in italian.should an italian learn the tenses too? I think they can talk to each other without thinking any tesnses,right?

I wish there are someways to use italian without learning tenses.
But Samuel, it is absolutely necessary in to learn the various verb tenses; you cannot get away from that fact. Verbs are very important elements of the grammar, and indicate whether one is talking about a past event, something that is happening in the present, or something that will occur in the future. I don't know what nationality you are, but does your mother tongue not have verb tenses? They would come as naturally to you as Italian verb tenses do to Italians and English ones do to English-speaking people. If you want to learn any of the Romance languages (Italian, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Romanian), you have to learn the most common verbs and their tenses. Other verbs will come as you gain more experience of the language.

But, for Heaven's sake, do not let them scare you, for you do seem more than a little afraid of them. :)

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polideuce
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Post by polideuce » Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:00 pm

è impossibile comunicare senza conoscere i tempi dei verbi; c'è da dire che ora usiamo meno "tempi", da un punto di vista numerico, rispetto a qualche decennio fa, ma quei pochi bisogna conoscerli.
Non è complicato, vi sono solo tre coniugazioni -are, -ere, -ire e moltissimi verbi si coniugano allo stesso modo.

samuel
Posts: 32
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Post by samuel » Fri Sep 11, 2009 4:28 am

Yes,Peter,as you said,it is important to know the verb tenses,but my question is that I can not remember them.today I know a thing,tomorrow
there will be nothing in my mind.the more I learn,the more I forget. :( this is the big problem.maybe I am too old.
By the way,my nationality is China,in my mother languages there are not verb tenses,maybe this is a reason that I am weak in understanding verb tenses.fortunately,I know a little English,my English teacher gave me something about English verb tenses, :D but,I think the Italian grammar is more diffcult. anyway,I love Italy and Italian culture,that will push me to learn Italian.
So,Peter,do you have a good idea for learning Italian?I am all ears. :wink:


But Samuel, it is absolutely necessary in to learn the various verb tenses; you cannot get away from that fact. Verbs are very important elements of the grammar, and indicate whether one is talking about a past event, something that is happening in the present, or something that will occur in the future. I don't know what nationality you are, but does your mother tongue not have verb tenses? They would come as naturally to you as Italian verb tenses do to Italians and English ones do to English-speaking people. If you want to learn any of the Romance languages (Italian, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Romanian), you have to learn the most common verbs and their tenses. Other verbs will come as you gain more experience of the language.

But, for Heaven's sake, do not let them scare you, for you do seem more than a little afraid of them. :)[/quote]

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Peter
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Post by Peter » Fri Sep 11, 2009 10:47 am

Samuel, I did wonder if your native language was something like Chinese. Without asking rude questions about how old you are, take some comfort from the fact that I will not see 60 again and that there are others on this forum who are older than me, and who started learning at an older age than I did. I suspect very much that it is the fact that you have never had to worry about verb tenses in Chinese that is making life difficult for you in this respect. I can understand that it would be a completely new concept for you and would take some understanding.

I don't know if this website will be of use. There are so many websites which cater for verbs it is difficult to know which ones to recommend! However, this one offers more than just verbs: http://www.ielanguages.com/italian.html

Personally, I always preferred learning in a class environment, with a tutor and other students. For me this made for a more active and fun way of learning, particularly if, as was often the case, the students hit it off with each other. Others prefer a self-learning method, and if that proves fine for them then great. Being a member of a couple of language forums helped me a lot. After some time you find yourself thinking more in Italian, and that in turn helps to improve your ability. But first things first, Samuel: Le's see if we can help you with the problems you are having with the verbs. So, don't be afraid to ask questions. And if I find other sites that I think may be helpful to you I will post them here.

Take care

:D :D

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umberto
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Post by umberto » Sat Sep 19, 2009 11:01 am

Ciao Samuel,

you're right: tenses are numerous and sometimes they may be hard; but don’t let them confuse you, they all belong to the same three scansions of time: past, present and future. These three scansions can be modulated and graded in different tones (I think that here Italian is a bit easier than English, where the use of the tenses is more precise thus stricter), nevertheless you’ll see that concept of past, present and future is quite “self-explanatory”: there’s nothing metaphysical in it! Just one thing: in Italian you have a tense, the “congiuntivo”, which is neither present nor future, neither past nor future in the past (yes, this is a bit metaphysical!!!). This may cause you some problems, but do not worry because Italians get mixed up with this tense too, so it’s going to be ok anyway!!

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Peter
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Post by Peter » Sat Sep 19, 2009 3:11 pm

Umberto, non sono sicuro che i tempi in inglesi siano necessariamente più precisi. Sto pensando qui del uso del passato prossimo contro quello dell'imperfetto in italiano. Ci sembra di essere più precisione nel uso dei questi due tempi, e spesso tale uso può causare - perlomeno per noi stranieri - più di un po' di confusione!!! :) :)

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umberto
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Post by umberto » Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:13 pm

Ciao Peter!!

eppure ho sempre avuto l’impressione che la divisione dei verbi in italiano fosse meno precisa di quella in inglese. A volte, per esempio, in italiano si usa l’imperfetto indicativo al posto del condizionale presente, oppure si usa il presente indicativo al posto del gerundio… In inglese non ho mai visto niente del genere. Sono d’accordo, tuttavia, che spiegare alcune differenze, come quella tra simple past e present perfect, non è facile, forse perché proprio, come tu hai detto, i tempi in inglese non sono necessariamente precisi.

P.S.

Pardon, nel mio ultimo messaggio ho scritto che il congiuntivo è un “tense”: ovviamente non è un tempo ma è un modo: volevo dire che, da un punto di vista temporale, il congiuntivo non si riferisce né a un passato né a un presente né a un futuro preciso.

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