Congiuntivo headaches!

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kingofninex
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Congiuntivo headaches!

Post by kingofninex » Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:29 pm

ciao tutti, sto studiando la lingua italiana e ho una domanda del congiuntivo, specificamente riguardo a questa frasa:

Volevo dirti che io verro' a Firenze domenica prossima e, se tu ______ (volere), noi potremmo incontrarci e andare a fare le spese insieme.

Usavo la parola 'voglia' (congiuntivo presente) e non era giusto. Userei il congiuntivo imperfetto: 'volessi' o il futuro 'vorrai'? Bot! Sono confuso!

grazie

kingofninex
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Re: Congiuntivo headaches!

Post by kingofninex » Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:07 pm

kingofninex wrote:ciao tutti, sto studiando la lingua italiana e ho una domanda del congiuntivo, specificamente riguardo a questa frasa:

Volevo dirti che io verro' a Firenze domenica prossima e, se tu ______ (volere), noi potremmo incontrarci e andare a fare le spese insieme.

Usavo la parola 'voglia' (congiuntivo presente) e non era giusto. Userei il congiuntivo imperfetto: 'volessi' o il futuro 'vorrai'? Bot! Sono confuso!

grazie
penso che ho trovato la parola guisto - 'avessi voluto' (cong. trapassato). Can anyone chime in if this is correct?

grazie!

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stefano2
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Post by stefano2 » Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:19 pm

Hi it may take a while to get a answer but no dout someone will could be later tonight or tomrrow thougth :D have looked at this one myself and im not suprised your having problems
Inglese più difettoso italiano difettoso

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Chris Corbyn
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Post by Chris Corbyn » Sat Mar 13, 2010 12:29 am

Queste frasi si chiamano le frasi ipotetiche: http://www.ilgur.com/2009/03/lesson-174 ... ce-il.html
se + congiuntivo imperfetto, condizionale
“se tu volessi, noi potremmo incontrarci...”

It equates to the English:

“if you wanted, we could meet up”

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Davide
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Post by Davide » Sat Mar 13, 2010 10:34 pm

This is a hypothetical phrase expressing real possibility, so you don't need the subjunctive - you can just use the indicative mood and say 'se tu vuoi (or 'se ne hai voglia') possiamo incontrarci.....'

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Peter
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Post by Peter » Sun Mar 14, 2010 3:58 pm

Davide wrote:This is a hypothetical phrase expressing real possibility, so you don't need the subjunctive - you can just use the indicative mood and say 'se tu vuoi (or 'se ne hai voglia') possiamo incontrarci.....'
I agree with Davide. Not sure that I've seen anything other than se vuoi - certainly I do not remmeber seeing it with the subjunctive and very rarely in anything other than present indicative. Another thiing to note is that whereas in English we may say if you would like, ie using the conditional tense, the present tense is (almost) invariably used in Italian. :)

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umberto
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Post by umberto » Sun Mar 14, 2010 5:09 pm

Peter e Davide, sono d’accordo con voi. Probably the syntax of the Italian hypothetical sentences isn’t so strict as that of the English one: we like to arrange it! For instance:

1. se vuoi, potremo vederci, but in the informal speech you’re allowed to use two present tenses: “se vuoi, possiamo vederci”, unless the sentense, so built, does not express adequately the sense of future;
2. se tu volessi, potremmo vederci, but you can say “se vuoi, potremmo vederci”
3. se tu avessi voluto, avremmo potuto vederci, but in the informal speech you’d rather say “se volevi, potevamo vederci”, it’s not wrong…


Moreover, the subordinate sentences, those beginning with “se”, can be replaced by a “gerundio”

1. volendo, potremo vederci
2. volendo, potremmo vederci
3. volendo, avremmo potuto vederci

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Chris Corbyn
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Post by Chris Corbyn » Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:04 am

umberto wrote:Moreover, the subordinate sentences, those beginning with “se”, can be replaced by a “gerundio”

1. volendo, potremo vederci
2. volendo, potremmo vederci
3. volendo, avremmo potuto vederci
That is interesting! I'd never seen the gerund form used like that, I'd only ever seen it at the start of a sentence used to describe an action that is already in progress.

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lockettpots
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Post by lockettpots » Wed Mar 17, 2010 2:20 pm

Hi Chris

A bit off topic but you can use the gerund also to express causality

Facendo così ti sei stancato
Because you did it like that, you got tired.

Then thing to watch is the 'subject' of the gerund must be the same as the subject of the main clause.

John
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www.lockettpots.co.uk

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umberto
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Post by umberto » Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:19 pm

lockettpots wrote:Hi Chris

Then thing to watch is the 'subject' of the gerund must be the same as the subject of the main clause.

John
Yes, it must be the same; nevertheless you also use this syntax when the subject of the “se” sentence is indefinable

volendo, potremo vederci

is either

if we want, we can meet up

or

if the circumstances, the coincidences, the occasions want, we can meet up

I checked this kind of syntax because I wasn’t sure it was “pure” Italian: it is Italian indeed and it is called “implicita”.

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