ha and abbia??

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zollen
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ha and abbia??

Post by zollen » Sat Nov 19, 2011 1:39 pm

I am a little confuse about the word "abbia". It has the exact same meaning as "ha" but I just don't know how/when to apply "abbia". Are there any other ho/hanno/abbiamo version of "abbia"?

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-Luca-
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Post by -Luca- » Sat Nov 19, 2011 2:02 pm

Ciao Zollen,

Abbia è il congiuntivo di avere nella prima,seconda e terza persona singolare.

Se vai nella sezione "Lezioni gratuite" troverai sicuramente la spiegazione del congiuntivo.

Ti anticipo solamente che il congiuntivo si utilizza principalmente quando non si sa con certezza un qualcosa, quando si esprime un pensiero e con alcune ipotetiche.

Esempio :

Credo che tu abbia fame
Penso che Mario abbia abbastanza denaro per comprare quella nuova auto.
Se avessi avuto i soldi avrei acquistato un nuovo camper
Italians don't know what Caesar salad is !!

zollen
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Please review the following sentences...

Post by zollen » Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:23 pm

Lavoriamo in un ufficio che ha le finestre.

Vogliamo lavorare in un ufficio che abbia le finestre.
Above two sentences are valid. Would the second statement valid if replace the word abbia with ha? Does this mean abbia is an 'optional' grammar?

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ladybird
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Re: Please review the following sentences...

Post by ladybird » Sun Nov 20, 2011 5:13 pm

zollen wrote:
Lavoriamo in un ufficio che ha le finestre.

Vogliamo lavorare in un ufficio che abbia le finestre.
Above two sentences are valid. Would the second statement valid if replace the word abbia with ha? Does this mean abbia is an 'optional' grammar?
Zollen, please read the link that Peter has given you on your other thread, it does explain when the subjunctive/congiuntivo is needed.

The subjunctive isn't "optional" grammar, it is necessary when speaking of hope, thought, desire..you can read about the rest in the link.

In your sentences "vogliamo" (volere)=we want/would like, therefore as you are expressing a desire to have something, the subjunctive is needed.

I hope to have got this right!
Life is for living and learning.

zollen
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Re: Please review the following sentences...

Post by zollen » Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:49 am

I read the link but the explanation itself is in Italian. I don't understand at all. English is not even my first language. Above post already explained that when expressing desires/hope/want, then siano/abbia would be applied. But I think there are more than just that.

For Example:
Io non so dove siano le mie chiavi.

The above sentence clearly did not express any hope/want/desire. But siano was utilized.

Would someone explain to me in plain English as when I should apply siano/abbia? I would be much much much appreciated.

Thanks.
ladybird wrote:
zollen wrote:
Lavoriamo in un ufficio che ha le finestre.

Vogliamo lavorare in un ufficio che abbia le finestre.
Above two sentences are valid. Would the second statement valid if replace the word abbia with ha? Does this mean abbia is an 'optional' grammar?
Zollen, please read the link that Peter has given you on your other thread, it does explain when the subjunctive/congiuntivo is needed.

The subjunctive isn't "optional" grammar, it is necessary when speaking of hope, thought, desire..you can read about the rest in the link.

In your sentences "vogliamo" (volere)=we want/would like, therefore as you are expressing a desire to have something, the subjunctive is needed.

I hope to have got this right!

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BillyShears
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Re: Please review the following sentences...

Post by BillyShears » Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:30 am

zollen wrote:I read the link but the explanation itself is in Italian. I don't understand at all. English is not even my first language. Above post already explained that when expressing desires/hope/want, then siano/abbia would be applied. But I think there are more than just that. Would someone explain to me in plain English as when I should apply siano/abbia? I would be much much much appreciated.

Thanks.
From this site click here you'll read:
There are four finite moods (modi finiti) in Italian: indicative (indicativo), which is used to indicate facts; subjunctive (congiuntivo), which is used to express an attitude or feeling toward an event; conditional (condizionale), which is used to express what would happen in a hypothetical situation; and imperative (imperativo), which is used to give commands.

"Lavoriamo in un ufficio che ha le finestre. (We work in an office that has windows.)" is a sentence that states facts so it's expressed in the indicative mood.

"Vogliamo lavorare in un ufficio che abbia le finestre. (We want to work in an office that has windows.)" is a sentence that states a wish or desire so it's expressed in the subjunctive (congiuntivo) mood.
zollen wrote:Io non so dove siano le mie chiavi.

The above sentence clearly did not express any hope/want/desire. But siano was utilized.
The subjunctive (congiuntivo) mood is also used to express uncertainty.

Here is an expanded list for when to use the subjunctive: Opinion, Judgment, Supposition, Doubt, Denial, Disbelief, Uncertainty, Emotion, Wish, Desire, Hope, Expectation, Command, Order, Permission, After Certain Conjunctions, Indefinite Word or Expression, Clause Introduced by a Relative Superlative, (With Solo, Unico, Primo, and Ultimo), As an Indirect Command, To Express a Wish, Clause Introduced by a Negative (Indefinite), Relative (adjective) Clause that Follows an Definite/Indefinite Antecedent Expression, Indirect Questions.

You'll also have to learn when not to use a subjunctive (i.e. when the subject is the same) note the difference:

Ho paura di non aver capito. (I’m afraid I didn’t understand.)
Ho paura che non abbiate capito. (I’m afraid that you didn’t understand.)


BS
Last edited by BillyShears on Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Chi domanda non fa errori.

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-Luca-
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Re: Please review the following sentences...

Post by -Luca- » Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:14 am

zollen wrote:.

For Example:
Io non so dove siano le mie chiavi.

The above sentence clearly did not express any hope/want/desire. But siano was utilized.

Yes you're right but it express uncertainty : "I don't know/have no idea where my keys might be"

If you read at my previous post you'll find out that I had already explained when using the subjunctive:
"...Ti anticipo solamente che il congiuntivo si utilizza principalmente quando non si sa con certezza un qualcosa, quando si esprime un pensiero e con alcune ipotetiche...."
Italians don't know what Caesar salad is !!

zollen
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Re: Please review the following sentences...

Post by zollen » Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:26 am

Thanks for the clarification.

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ladybird
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Re: Please review the following sentences...

Post by ladybird » Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:55 pm

-Luca- wrote:
zollen wrote:.

For Example:
Io non so dove siano le mie chiavi.

The above sentence clearly did not express any hope/want/desire. But siano was utilized.

Yes you're right but it express uncertainty : "I don't know/have no idea where my keys might be"

If you read at my previous post you'll find out that I had already explained when using the subjunctive:
"...Ti anticipo solamente che il congiuntivo si utilizza principalmente quando non si sa con certezza un qualcosa, quando si esprime un pensiero e con alcune ipotetiche...."
Ciao Luca.

Zollen has now explained to us that he doesn't understand the posts in Italian so links to English explanations are more helpful!
Glad that Billy has given you some help Zollen but it would have been a little easier to help you if you had explained your difficulty with understanding Italian when you originally asked your question.

Anyway, no matter, we know now. :)
Life is for living and learning.

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Quintus
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Re: Please review the following sentences...

Post by Quintus » Thu Nov 24, 2011 12:24 am

zollen wrote:I read the link but the explanation itself is in Italian. I don't understand at all. English is not even my first language. Above post already explained that when expressing desires/hope/want, then siano/abbia would be applied. But I think there are more than just that.

For Example:
Io non so dove siano le mie chiavi.

The above sentence clearly did not express any hope/want/desire. But siano was utilized. Would someone explain to me in plain English as when I should apply siano/abbia? I would be much much much appreciated.
Thanks.
It's not easy to explain you the subjunctive in "Io non so dove siano le mie chiavi", because it's wrong :D
The correct sentence is "Io non so dove sono le mie chiavi".

The verbs that express judgment or perception require the indicative. Among them (each English equivalent is not to be considered the best translation):

accorgersi, to realize
affermare, to affirm
confermare, to confirm
certificare, to certify
constatare, to certify
dichiarare, to declare
dimostrare, to demonstrate
dire, to say
giurare, to swear
insegnare, to teach
intuire, to foresee
notare, to note
percepire, to perceive
promettere, to promise
ricordare, to remember
riflettere, to reflect
rispondere, to answer
:arrow: sapere, to know
scoprire, to discover
scrivere, to write
sentire, to feel
sostenere, to sustain
spiegare, to explain
udire, to hear
vedere, to see

It's easy to check it out for a native. Take one at random, eg. "sapere": "So che sei un bravo studente", I know you are a clever student, not "So che tu sia un bravo studente".

"Ti confermo che hai vinto la lotterìa", not "Ti confermo che tu abbia vinto la lotterìa".
"Sento che sei un ottimo ingegnere", "Mi sto accorgendo che i libri di grammatica sono pieni di errori", "La storia insegna che certe vicende si ripetono ciclicamente", etc. etc. etc.

I know it. You want to know why the subordinate clause was formulated in that way. Because, in my opinion, the native who wrote it is a particularly insecure person. Although, rather than a therapy, s/he would need a grammar book (let's hope s/he's not my tax agent) :D

Franco

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BillyShears
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Re: Please review the following sentences...

Post by BillyShears » Thu Nov 24, 2011 3:23 am

Quintus wrote:It's not easy to explain you the subjunctive in "Io non so dove siano le mie chiavi", because it's wrong :D
The correct sentence is "Io non so dove sono le mie chiavi".

The verbs that express judgment or perception require the indicative. Among them (each English equivalent is not to be considered the best translation):

accorgersi, to realize
affermare, to affirm
confermare, to confirm
certificare, to certify
constatare, to certify
dichiarare, to declare
dimostrare, to demonstrate
dire, to say
giurare, to swear
insegnare, to teach
intuire, to foresee
notare, to note
percepire, to perceive
promettere, to promise
ricordare, to remember
riflettere, to reflect
rispondere, to answer
:arrow: sapere, to know
scoprire, to discover
scrivere, to write
sentire, to feel
sostenere, to sustain
spiegare, to explain
udire, to hear
vedere, to see

It's easy to check it out for a native. Take one at random, eg. "sapere": "So che sei un bravo studente", I know you are a clever student, not "So che tu sia un bravo studente".

"Ti confermo che hai vinto la lotterìa", not "Ti confermo che tu abbia vinto la lotterìa".
"Sento che sei un ottimo ingegnere", "Mi sto accorgendo che i libri di grammatica sono pieni di errori", "La storia insegna che certe vicende si ripetono ciclicamente", etc. etc. etc.

I know it. You want to know why the subordinate clause was formulated in that way. Because, in my opinion, the native who wrote it is a particularly insecure person. Although, rather than a therapy, s/he would need a grammar book (let's hope s/he's not my tax agent) :D

Franco
Franco,

In my notes for "uses of the subjunctive" I recorded this:

Doubt, Denial, Disbelief, Uncertainty
dubitare che (to doubt that)
negare che (to deny that) - Antonio nega che io sia un suo amico. (Anthony denies that I am a friend of his.)
non essere sicuro che (to not be sure that)
non sapere se (to not know if)

I should remove non sapere se from this list, correct?

And I'm sorry to bother you but if you have an opportunity could you please look at my post "Those floats were magnificent"? If you do please disregard my erroneous remarks about "opinion" and "fact".

Grazie in anticipo,

BS
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Geoff
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Post by Geoff » Thu Nov 24, 2011 5:52 am

Non so se is found in indirect questions; these usually require the subjunctive, at least in writing and more formal speech.

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Post by BillyShears » Thu Nov 24, 2011 2:08 pm

Geoff wrote:Non so se is found in indirect questions; these usually require the subjunctive, at least in writing and more formal speech.
Thanks Geoff. I've accumulated notes from different sources. In many cases they just list the clause without an explanation and without an example. In my notes I do have a section under subjunctives for indirect questions. I'll list Non so se in that section.

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Re: Please review the following sentences...

Post by Quintus » Thu Nov 24, 2011 2:43 pm

BillyShears wrote: Franco,
In my notes for "uses of the subjunctive" I recorded this:
Doubt, Denial, Disbelief, Uncertainty
dubitare che (to doubt that)
negare che (to deny that) - Antonio nega che io sia un suo amico. (Anthony denies that I am a friend of his.)
non essere sicuro che (to not be sure that)
non sapere se (to not know if)
Hi Billy,

Yes. That looks like correct. For the sake of comparison, here's the point of view of Accademia della Crusca.

The verbs that express volition (order, prayer, permission), expectation (desire, fear, suspicion), opinion or persuasion require the subjunctive. Among them (each English equivalent is not to be considered the best translation):

accettare, to accept
amare, to love
aspettare, to expect/wait
assicurarsi, to make sure
attendere, to expect/wait
augurare, to wish
chiedere, to ask
credere, to believe
curarsi, to look after
desiderare, to desire
disporre, to decide
domandare, to ask
dubitare, to doubt (but the indicative may be required with the negative imperative: “non dubitare che faremo i nostri conti”, C. Collodi, Le avventure di Pinocchio)
esigere, to demand
fingere, to pretend
illudersi, to deceive oneself
immaginare, to imagine
lasciare, to let
negare, to deny
ordinare, to order
permettere, to allow/permit
preferire, to prefer
pregare, to beg
presumere, to presume
pretendere, to claim/demand
raccomandare, to recommend
rallegrarsi, to gladden
ritenere, to considersospettare, to suspect
sperare, to hope
supporre, to suppose
temere, to be afraid
volere, to want
non sapere se (to not know if). I should remove non sapere se from this list, correct?
According to Accademia della Crusca, "sapere" should definitely be put into the set of verbs that require the indicative, and as far as I know their statement harmonizes with my knowledges.
As to non "non sapere", one could object that if "sapere" expresses positive certainty, "non sapere" should express uncertainty. In my opinion, rather than uncertainty, which would require the subjunctive, "non sapere" expresses negative certainty, which requires the indicative. In other words, if this identity is true:

"I know that you are wise" = "I have a sure knowledge of your being wise"
[So che sei saggio] = [Ho sicura conoscenza del tuo essere saggio]

then also the following identity should hold:

"I don't know if you are wise" = "I have a sure lack of knowledge of your being sage"
[Non so se sei saggio] = [Ho sicura mancanza di conoscenza del tuo essere saggio]

Both the forms express certainty, a positive and a negative one, and the indicative would to be used in both the cases.
On the other hand, if you interpret "I don't know if you are wise" as "I don't have certainty about your being wise", then it would be equivalent to "I doubt that your are wise". In this case the verb "non sapere" is for "I doubt", hence it may take the subjunctive when followed by a subordinate clause of interrogative indirect type.

Geoff arised an objection just about this point:
Geoff wrote:Non so se is found in indirect questions; these usually require the subjunctive, at least in writing and more formal speech.
I found this objection quite consistent. As I said, I don't use the subjunctive with "sapere" or "non sapere", because it sounds idiomatic to me. So I looked over different books and found that both the forms are usable, either in formal speech and writing:

(a) Indicative:
"Non so se è giusto", I don't know if it's right


(b) Subjunctive:
"Non so se sia giusto", I don't know if it's right (lit.: I don't know if it be right)
[I don't have a sufficient knowledge of being it right]

Upon this point of view, the sentence "Io non so dove siano le mie chiavi" shouldn't be considered "wrong" because it would be of type (b). If you like the form (b) you have to face the problem that, if the subordinate clause is of declarative type, as in "so che sei lì", the verb "sapere" requires the indicative, and if the subordinate clause is of interrogative indirect type the same verb requires the subjunctive, as in "non so se tu sia lì" . You decide. In my opinion, since the scholars of Accademia della Crusca put "sapere" into the set of verbs that require the indicative and don't arise exceptions, I'd find more comfortable to use the indicative for it in all cases, just speaking about non-natives as well as me.

I posted a list of verbs requiring the indicative in my previous message, and one requiring the subjunctive in this message. These two sets overlaps: there's also a list of verbs that can take both the subjunctive and the indicative. Depending on the context, you may have different nuances in meaning (cfr. SERIANNI 1989: XIV 51). Here' some:

ammettere
ind.: [for "riconoscere" (to admit)]: ammisi davanti al professore che non avevo studiato bene, I admitted, before the professor, I had not studied enough.
subj.: [for "supporre" (to suppose)]: ammettendo che tu abbia ragione, cosa dovrei fare? (also) admitting that you're right, what should I do?

badare
ind.: [for "osservare" (to notice)]: cercò di non badare all’effetto che gli faceva quella strana voce, he tried not to note the effect that that strange voice was having on him.
subj.: [for "aver cura" (to care)]: mi consigliava di badare che non cadessi, he recommended that I care not to fall down.

capire, comprendere
ind.: [for "rendersi conto" (to become aware)]: non vuole capire che io non sono un suo dipendente, he don't want to become aware that I'm not a subordinate of him.
subj.: [for "trovare naturale" (to find something natural)]: capisco che tu voglia andartene, I find it natural that you don't want to go away.

considerare
ind.: [for "tener conto" (to consider)]: non considerava che nessuno voleva seguirlo, he did not consider that nobody wanted to follow him.
subj.: [for "supporre" (to suppose)]: arrivò a considerare che non ci fossero altre possibilità, he came to suppose that there weren't further chances.

pensare
ind.: [for "essere convinto" (to be persuaded)]: penso anch’io che tu sei stanco, I too think you are tired.
[A note of mine: "penso anch'io che tu sei stanco" sounds badly. Using "pensare" in place of "essere persuaso" followed by the indicative is not correct. One should actually say "sono persuaso che sei stanco"]
subj.: [for "supporre" (to suppose)]: penso che tu sia stanco, I think you are tired

BillyShears wrote: And I'm sorry to bother you but if you have an opportunity could you please look at my post "Those floats were magnificent"? If you do please disregard my erroneous remarks about "opinion" and "fact".

I've been following the thread since the beginning and started writing something about the use of the imperfect tense, but didn't yet post anything because that subject is quite a bad beast. I will post something before Sunday. It would be comfortable for me to have some feedback though, because I think I'm not able to render it properly in English, at least not in every circumstance. As to the "opinion"/"fact" matter, that's ok, I got what you meant.

Franco

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Peter
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Post by Peter » Thu Nov 24, 2011 3:35 pm

Ah, the subjunctive!! Such fun!! :)

Billy, I assume you have in your notes on this mood phrases such as è possibile che and è probabile che.

Also, certain conjunctions require the subjunctive - which seems reasonable in view of the fact that in Italian it is called the congiuntivo! Such conjunctions include:

prima che (before); come se (as if); tranne che, a meno che (unless); se; malgrado, benché, sebbene (although); nonostante (despite/ notwithstanding).

Also, where the verb is introduced by an indefinite pronoun or adjective you need the subjunctive: chiunque, qualunque and qualsiasi.

Not forgetting magari!! Magari fosse vero; magari fossi io giovane.

Here's something of interest:

Ho bisogno dell'assistente che parla italiano

Ho bisogno di un assistente che parli italiano

In the first sentence, you are saying that you need the assistant that actually speaks Italian (ie specific). In the second, you are saying you need an assistant who may speak Italian (non-specific).

Con ringraziamento a Modern Italian Grammar :)

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