discorso indiretto

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romanamic
Posts: 92
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 10:01 am

discorso indiretto

Post by romanamic »

Hi all!

Could someone explain to me, when the CONGIUNTIVO is used for the discorso indiretto? Or maybe anyone knows a website with clarification about this in english (italian is ok aswell actually..)? Websites with exersices are also always welcome :)

Thanks!

Ciao!
Peter
Posts: 2902
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 12:41 pm
Location: Horsham, West Sussex, England

Re: discorso indiretto

Post by Peter »

romanamic wrote:Hi all!

Could someone explain to me, when the CONGIUNTIVO is used for the discorso indiretto? Or maybe anyone knows a website with clarification about this in english (italian is ok aswell actually..)? Websites with exersices are also always welcome :)

Thanks!

Ciao!
Ciao e benvenuto

As in my response to Aussieguy regarding the conditional, I include a link to the George Watson College. You will find that it covers many, if not all, aspects of the use of the subjunctive (congiuntivo): http://www.gwc.org.uk/ModernLang/hotpot ... tives.html :) :)
Roby
Posts: 3850
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2004 2:06 pm

Post by Roby »

quote="romanamic"]Hi all!

Could someone explain to me, when the CONGIUNTIVO is used for the discorso indiretto? Or maybe anyone knows a website with clarification about this in english (italian is ok aswell actually..)? Websites with exersices are also always welcome :)

Thanks!

Ciao![/quote]

I read your post on wordreference.com

You are asking whether to use the subjunctive or the indicative after ho detto che dice che , correct?

http://www.ielanguages.com/italian5.html
The past conditional expresses the same basic idea as the present conditional. It is used to express unfulfilled requests, situations that did not occur, or events which had the possibility to fulfill themselves, but didn't. It is formed by using the present conditional of avere or essere and the past participle of the main verb. One difference between English and Italian usage of the past conditional is that when expressing a future action from the viewpoint of the past, Italian uses the past conditional whereas English uses the present conditional.
Ha detto che sarebbe venuto. He said that he would come.

http://books.google.com/books?id=1VdIfd ... &ct=result

Past conditional-indicates the future from a past point of view. It is used usually after the moment has passed regardless of whether or not
Carlo actually came or not


Carlo ha detto che sarebbe venuto. Carlo said that he would come.


Present or Future tense
When a future moment has not yet come, and it is still possible that Carlo will pass by

Carlo ha detto che passera' piu' tardi
Carlotold me that he will pass by later

Carlo ha detto che passa piu' tardi
Carlo told me he will pass by later

Imperfect Tense

It is more colloquial. It is possible to use the imperfect to replace the compound conditional

Carlo ha detto che passava piu' tardi


Regarding dice che

http://books.google.com/books?id=ranKyl ... &ct=result


Present Tense
Mario dice che finisce all'una
Mario says he finishes at 1 o'clock.

Past Tense
Mario dice che ha finito all'una
Mario says that he finished at 1 o'clock

Future Tense
Mario dice che finira' all'una
Mario says that he will finish at 1 o'clock
Roby
"Per raro che sia, il vero amore e' meno raro della vera amicizia."

"As rare as true love is, it is not as rare as true friendship."
- François de La Rochefoucauld
romanamic
Posts: 92
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 10:01 am

Post by romanamic »

Roby wrote:quote="romanamic"]Hi all!

Could someone explain to me, when the CONGIUNTIVO is used for the discorso indiretto? Or maybe anyone knows a website with clarification about this in english (italian is ok aswell actually..)? Websites with exersices are also always welcome :)

Thanks!

Ciao!
I read your post on wordreference.com

You are asking whether to use the subjunctive or the indicative after ho detto che dice che , correct?

http://www.ielanguages.com/italian5.html
The past conditional expresses the same basic idea as the present conditional. It is used to express unfulfilled requests, situations that did not occur, or events which had the possibility to fulfill themselves, but didn't. It is formed by using the present conditional of avere or essere and the past participle of the main verb. One difference between English and Italian usage of the past conditional is that when expressing a future action from the viewpoint of the past, Italian uses the past conditional whereas English uses the present conditional.
Ha detto che sarebbe venuto. He said that he would come.

http://books.google.com/books?id=1VdIfd ... &ct=result

Past conditional-indicates the future from a past point of view. It is used usually after the moment has passed regardless of whether or not
Carlo actually came or not


Carlo ha detto che sarebbe venuto. Carlo said that he would come.


Present or Future tense
When a future moment has not yet come, and it is still possible that Carlo will pass by

Carlo ha detto che passera' piu' tardi
Carlotold me that he will pass by later

Carlo ha detto che passa piu' tardi
Carlo told me he will pass by later

Imperfect Tense

It is more colloquial. It is possible to use the imperfect to replace the compound conditional

Carlo ha detto che passava piu' tardi


Regarding dice che

http://books.google.com/books?id=ranKyl ... &ct=result


Present Tense
Mario dice che finisce all'una
Mario says he finishes at 1 o'clock.

Past Tense
Mario dice che ha finito all'una
Mario says that he finished at 1 o'clock

Future Tense
Mario dice che finira' all'una
Mario says that he will finish at 1 o'clock[/quote]


I actually meant something else. Peter, I've visited your link, but it didn't quite mention what I'm looking for.

I mean, when the discorso indiretto is used, what to do after the word 'se'.
For example:
Laura chiese: "ha trovato nuovi amici?"..... becomes: Laura chiese se aveva/avesse trovato nuovi amici.
Here, the imperfetto indicativo or congiuntivo can be used. Online, though, I came across this sentence:

Stefano disse: “Se lo vedrò, glielo dirò.” -► Stefano disse che se lo avesse visto, gliel'avrebbe detto.

I'm so confused about this one! The first part is congiuntivo (avesse visto), and the second part condizionale (avrebbe detto). I don't understand this, and have this problems with more sentences starting with 'se'.

Hope you guys can help!
Geoff
Posts: 251
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:55 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Post by Geoff »

Stefano disse: “Se lo vedrò, glielo dirò.” -► Stefano disse che se lo avesse visto, gliel'avrebbe detto.

I'm so confused about this one! The first part is congiuntivo (avesse visto), and the second part condizionale (avrebbe detto). I don't understand this, and have this problems with more sentences starting with 'se'.


Hypotheticals that are unrealisable (if I had three arms) or most unlikely to be realised (if I won the lottery) require the subjunctive for the condition clause and the conditional for the clause stating what would happen. In this case you have a condition that is unrealisable because it is in the past and did not happen. Because it is in the past you use the imperfect subjunctive and the past conditional.
Peter
Posts: 2902
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 12:41 pm
Location: Horsham, West Sussex, England

Post by Peter »

What responses have you had on wordreference, mic? (I know I could go on there and find out but have made it a point not to use that forum because of the way the main man there treats people. :evil: :evil: ) So, are the responses you have had here more or less the same as you have had there? It would be interesting to know.
romanamic
Posts: 92
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 10:01 am

Post by romanamic »

Geoff wrote:Stefano disse: “Se lo vedrò, glielo dirò.” -► Stefano disse che se lo avesse visto, gliel'avrebbe detto.

I'm so confused about this one! The first part is congiuntivo (avesse visto), and the second part condizionale (avrebbe detto). I don't understand this, and have this problems with more sentences starting with 'se'.


Hypotheticals that are unrealisable (if I had three arms) or most unlikely to be realised (if I won the lottery) require the subjunctive for the condition clause and the conditional for the clause stating what would happen. In this case you have a condition that is unrealisable because it is in the past and did not happen. Because it is in the past you use the imperfect subjunctive and the past conditional.
Ok, understood. What do I do with the congiuntivo trapassato then? I thought that if something is unrealizable, the congiuntivo trapassato is required, and not the congiuntivo imperfetto.


I've learnt this:
3 tipi di ipotetica
1)Realtà, Se ho tempo, vado al cinema
2)Possibilità, Se avessi tempo, andrei al cinema
3)Impossibilità/irrealtà, Se avessi avuto tempo, sarei andato al cinema.

Oh and Peter, on wordreference I was told to view other threads :), I was given some links to other threads, but none of them discussed what I meant exactly. ;)
Roby
Posts: 3850
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2004 2:06 pm

Post by Roby »

romanamic wrote: Ok, understood. What do I do with the congiuntivo trapassato then? I thought that if something is unrealizable, the congiuntivo trapassato is required, and not the congiuntivo imperfetto.


I've learnt this:
3 tipi di ipotetica
1)Realtà, Se ho tempo, vado al cinema
2)Possibilità, Se avessi tempo, andrei al cinema
3)Impossibilità/irrealtà, Se avessi avuto tempo, sarei andato al cinema.

Oh and Peter, on wordreference I was told to view other threads :), I was given some links to other threads, but none of them discussed what I meant exactly. ;)
Check these links
http://impariamo.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=860
http://impariamo.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1390

http://italian.about.com/library/fare/blfare192a.htm

Form this tense with the congiuntivo imperfetto of the auxiliary verb avere or essere and the past participle of the acting verb

Here are a few examples of the trapassato congiuntivo:

Speravo che avessero capito. (I was hoping they had understood.)
Avevo paura che non avessero risolto quel problema. (I was afraid they hadn't resolved that problem.)
Vorrebbero che io raccontassi una storia. (They would like me to tell a story.)
Non volevo che tu lo facessi così presto. (I didn't want you to do it as soon.)
http://www.geocities.com/f_pollett/i-9-5.htm
http://ciaoitaliablog.wordpress.com/cla ... rapassato/
http://www.italianlanguageguide.com/ita ... bjunctive/
http://www.oneworlditaliano.com/grammat ... aliano.htm
http://www.uvm.edu/~cmazzoni/3grammatic ... ctive.html
http://slowtalk.com/groupee/forums/a/tp ... 3281038241
I hope these are helpful. If not let us know
Roby
"Per raro che sia, il vero amore e' meno raro della vera amicizia."

"As rare as true love is, it is not as rare as true friendship."
- François de La Rochefoucauld
Peter
Posts: 2902
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 12:41 pm
Location: Horsham, West Sussex, England

Post by Peter »

Oh and Peter, on wordreference I was told to view other threads , I was given some links to other threads, but none of them discussed what I meant exactly.
Well that was really helpful, mic! Ye Gods.


And as a complete aside, to read this thread I am having to scroll right across the screen. :? Any of you others having this problem?
romanamic
Posts: 92
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 10:01 am

Post by romanamic »

I get it! YES! I think that sometimes I should just stop, and look at a sentence the day after. Took me a while to realise that this was something I knew all along :D! Thanks for all the help guys, it's clear to me now.

And Peter, I have the same problem! Very odd..
romanamic
Posts: 92
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 10:01 am

Post by romanamic »

Ok, I couldn't help myself. I continued studying some more and bumped into something else.
Is this correct:
Raffaella domandò: "Perchè non vi fermate qui?" ->Raffaella domandò perchè non ci fermassimo lì.


I hoooooope this is correct! I used the congiuntivo because of domandare, and the imperfetto congiuntivo because of "vi fermate". According to the concordanza dei tempi rules, presente becomes imperfetto..


:roll:
Geoff
Posts: 251
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:55 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Post by Geoff »

I believe that is correct. Present -> Imperfect in reported speech and indirect questions require the subjunctive, hence imperfect subjunctive.
romanamic
Posts: 92
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 10:01 am

Post by romanamic »

Great! Thanx! I'm glad I finally understand :)

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