Fatti?

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Devery
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Fatti?

Post by Devery »

:oops: I just can't wrap my brain around this one.
I came across this sentence...
Fatti ricordare alcune norme basilari di comporamento a tavola...

It translates as "let me remind you of some of the basic table manners."

If I was going to say that on my own I would have said Fammi ricordarti....

This of course is an easy way to remember and I will use it from here on out. Is this fate + ti (which doesn't make sense to me)? But why are there 2 t's? Does the fatti represent tu? Is it an imperative (command)?
I have also seen this: fatti principali (basic facts). Seeing things like this makes me the more confused.

Thanks guys!
Pompiere
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Fatti

Post by Pompiere »

Devery,

Thanks for the info. Confondo anche con fatti. Recently I was confused with the word fu and I was going to ask about it, and I just went to Word Reference and saw that it is the third person passato remoto. Hopefully I will be able to remember that one along with fatti

A presto ..... Richard
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polideuce
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Post by polideuce »

"Fatti ricordare alcune norme basilari di comporamento a tavola..."
in questo caso si tratta di un imperativo e fatti sta per "fare a te" dove "ti" sta per a te (personalmente tutta la frase mi sembra un po' infelice...)

"fatti principali" in questo caso "fatti" sta per "accadimenti" e l'hai tradotto bene con "basic facts"

Attendi un altro parere, quello che ho scritto è corretto ma non molto circostanziato...
Devery
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Post by Devery »

It looks like my confusion comes more from the translation than the Italian itself. The first time I saw fatti I figured it was the imperative (like fammi). I guess the 2 t's are necessary just like the 2 m's are necessary in fammi. So, fare + ti (do/make + yourself) ricordare (remember), how does that translate to let me remind you when it sounds like you need to remind yourself? :o

Are there other examples anyone could give me of fatti that might help?

And the fatti principali...is that the verb fare + ti again?
giuseppe
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Post by giuseppe »

Devery wrote:It looks like my confusion comes more from the translation than the Italian itself. The first time I saw fatti I figured it was the imperative (like fammi). I guess the 2 t's are necessary just like the 2 m's are necessary in fammi. So, fare + ti (do/make + yourself) ricordare (remember), how does that translate to let me remind you when it sounds like you need to remind yourself? :o

Are there other examples anyone could give me of fatti that might help?

And the fatti principali...is that the verb fare + ti again?
Devery, I totally agree with you, that translation doesn't make sense to me either. I'm not even sure if the sentence is correct in Italian, although it is understandable. What I would say is: fammi ricordare alcune norme basilari di comportamento a tavola, which is definitely correct.

As for fatti principali, fatti is a noun (the plural of fatto). By sheer coincidence it resembles the verb, perhaps because of their etymological origin, but they are completely unrelated here.
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umberto
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Post by umberto »

Devery wrote:It looks like my confusion comes more from the translation than the Italian itself. The first time I saw fatti I figured it was the imperative (like fammi). I guess the 2 t's are necessary just like the 2 m's are necessary in fammi. So, fare + ti (do/make + yourself) ricordare (remember), how does that translate to let me remind you when it sounds like you need to remind yourself? :o

Are there other examples anyone could give me of fatti that might help?

And the fatti principali...is that the verb fare + ti again?
Devery,

I think you got it: you were misled because the translation is wrong: I’d rather translate “fatti ricordare” into “let him/her/them remind you”, not into “let me remind you”, that’s sooner “fammi ricordarti” (or “lascia che io ti ricordi”).

As you pointed out, the 2 t’s are necessary: this doubling happens with all the verbs whose imperative form is a monosyllable. The doubling of the “t” follows the same rule of English, when you double the consonant in words like stop and stopped. If you think about it, the contraction of fa’ and ti is just like in English, when you mould “give” and “me” in one word “gimme” (ok, “gimme” is slang, but you got what I mean). In Italian you do this not only with the first person:

DARE = dai or da’ (give) = datti (give yourself), dammi (give me, or “gimme”), dagli (give him/them), dalle (give her), dacci (give us). With “voi” it’s not possible, it would be illogical: you should say “datevi” (give yourselves)

FARE = fai or fa’ = fatti, fammi, fagli, falle, facci; you could even say fanne (fanne di più! = make more of that!)

DIRE = di’ = di’ a te stesso (tell yourself; a contracted form doesn’t exist!!!), dimmi (tell me), digli (tell him, tell them), dille (tell her), dicci (tell us)

ANDARE = vai or va’ = vacci (go there!)



By the way, there isn’t any great difference between da’ and dai: da’ is shorter, thus more informal. The word "fatti" is also a noun: it means "facts", "events", "occurrences" and so on.
Devery
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Post by Devery »

Thank you all for the very helpful responses. I honestly have never came across fatti. So when I saw that sentence with that translation I got confused.


I do have a question and a request so bear with me.

Is fatti kind of strong and/or (even) negative? In essence it is telling someone to "do it yourself." I suppose there is a time and a place for that but I guess I will continue to stick with the conditional. :wink:

Could someone give me some other examples of fatti in a couple of sentences so I can see the context of when and how it is used? I would greatly appreciate it.



Again thanks for the wonderful responses thus far.
Devery
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Post by Devery »

DARE = dai or da’ (give) = datti (give yourself), dammi (give me, or “gimme”), dagli (give him/them), dalle (give her), dacci (give us). With “voi” it’s not possible, it would be illogical: you should say “datevi” (give yourselves)

FARE = fai or fa’ = fatti, fammi, fagli, falle, facci; you could even say fanne (fanne di più! = make more of that!)

DIRE = di’ = di’ a te stesso (tell yourself; a contracted form doesn’t exist!!!), dimmi (tell me), digli (tell him, tell them), dille (tell her), dicci (tell us)

ANDARE = vai or va’ = vacci (go there!)
Very helpful. I never would have thought of saying vacci (go there!), di’ a te stesso, datti, or even fanne. This is some pretty basic stuff I let pass me by!
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umberto
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Post by umberto »

Devery wrote:Thank you all for the very helpful responses. I honestly have never came across fatti. So when I saw that sentence with that translation I got confused.


I do have a question and a request so bear with me.

Is fatti kind of strong and/or (even) negative? In essence it is telling someone to "do it yourself." I suppose there is a time and a place for that but I guess I will continue to stick with the conditional. :wink:

Could someone give me some other examples of fatti in a couple of sentences so I can see the context of when and how it is used? I would greatly appreciate it.



Again thanks for the wonderful responses thus far.
With the imperative, the pronouns join the verbs and they form one word (this happens because the pronouns haven’t got any personal stress, so they must exploit the stress of the verbs)

Leggi il libro! = Leggilo! (Read the book! = Read it!)

It would be as if in English you said “readit” instead of “read it”. In Italian, if the imperative form of the verb is a monosyllable, the pronoun still joins the verb, and moreover it doubles the consonant.

Di’ a Francesca le belle notizie! = Dille le belle notizie! (Tell Francesca the good news! = Tell her the good news!

As for “ci” and “ne”, they are pronouns like “lo”, “mi”, “le” ecc., so they exactly act like any other.

“Fatti” is a the weak form of “fa’ a te”. You know that pronuns have two forms, a weak and a strong one:

Conosco Francesca (I know Francesca)
La conosco (weak: “I know her”)
Conosco lei (strong: in English it could be “I do know her”, “I really know her, not someone else”)

So “fatti”:

Fatti un favore: smetti di fumare! (it’ a weak form: “Do yourself a favour: stop smoking!”)
Fa’ a te stesso un favore: smetti di fumare! (strong, in English it could be “Just do yourself a favour: stop smoking!”)

With the negative form, the verb turns from the imperative into the infinitive:

Leggilo! Non leggerlo! (Read it! Don’t read it!)

Dille le belle notizie = Non dirle le belle notizie!

Fatti un favore: smetti di fumare! = Non farti alcun favore: non smettere di fumare!
Fa’ a te stesso un favore: smetti di fumare! = Non fare a te stesso alcun favore: non smettere di fumare!

Fammi entare! = Let me get in!
Non farmi entrare! = Don’t let me get in!

Di’ a te stesso la verità = Tell yourlself the truth
Non dire a te stesso la verità = Don’t tell yourself the truth

Vacci! = Go there!
Non andarci! = Don’t go there!

The plural people don’t change:

Andateci! = Go there! (you all, everybody)
Non andateci! = Don’t go there!

Andiamoci = Let’s go there!
Non andiamoci = Don’t let’s go there!
Devery
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Post by Devery »

You should write a book or something. :lol: :wink:
Andrew
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Post by Andrew »

Thanks Umberto and others, that was all very helpful stuff on pronouns, although I suspect it will be a long time before I understand and remember all those things :)

Something funny/unusual I noticed (and I only mention this because my native-Italian-speaking university lecturer did the same thing):
the pronouns haven’t got any personal stress, so they must exploit the stress of the verbs
My lecturer did this all the time; she'd say 'exploit' when 'use' would have carried the same meaning without the negative connotation, like 'Let's exploit these exercises to increase your speaking skills'. There were always a couple of amused smiles in the class whenever she did it. I wonder if it's just coincidence or if it's a translation thing or something? :)

(For the record, 'to exploit' usually carries the meaning of 'to use someone or something for one's own gain, without consideration for others', e.g. 'to exploit natural resources'. It's not a big thing at all, but I dare say you might earn a couple of amused smiles of your own if you were to use it indiscriminately in place of 'to use' :))
Please correct me when I attempt to use Italian, I'm still learning :)
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umberto
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Post by umberto »

Andrew wrote:Thanks Umberto and others, that was all very helpful stuff on pronouns, although I suspect it will be a long time before I understand and remember all those things :)

Something funny/unusual I noticed (and I only mention this because my native-Italian-speaking university lecturer did the same thing):
the pronouns haven’t got any personal stress, so they must exploit the stress of the verbs
My lecturer did this all the time; she'd say 'exploit' when 'use' would have carried the same meaning without the negative connotation, like 'Let's exploit these exercises to increase your speaking skills'. There were always a couple of amused smiles in the class whenever she did it. I wonder if it's just coincidence or if it's a translation thing or something? :)

(For the record, 'to exploit' usually carries the meaning of 'to use someone or something for one's own gain, without consideration for others', e.g. 'to exploit natural resources'. It's not a big thing at all, but I dare say you might earn a couple of amused smiles of your own if you were to use it indiscriminately in place of 'to use' :))
I simply meant "sfruttare". In Italian this verb has two connotations: one is positive ("sfruttare" means "to catch the fruit of something", that is to say "to catch the best part, the juiciest"); the other one is negative ("to exploit", "to take advantage of something or someone in a sly and sneaky way", and this is very close to the English meaning).

You can say, for instance, "sfruttare una bella giornata": it means "to get all the beautiful things that a sunny and beautiful day can offer you"!!! There isn't absolutely anything negative!!! :lol:
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beauxyeux
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Post by beauxyeux »

Just my little opinion about this:

Fammi ricordarti doesn't exist in Italian, because "fammi" can only be used in the sense of "fai qualcosa per me"
(Fammi una spremuta; Fammi un sorriso)
In the sentence you were speaking of, the sense was "lascia che io ti ricordi; permettimi di ricordarti"
I had the impression it could be a bad translation from English, but it's just an impression...

"Fatti" as a verb can easily be found as an imperative of the reflexive form "farsi"
Fatti da parte (spostati)
Fatti una ragione (or even Fattene una ragione.... and I don't know how to translate ino English :shock: ; it can be used for example if your boyfriend has let you down and you have to forget him and go on with your life, so fattene una ragione....)

Fatti ricordare (farsi ricordare as I said lascia che ti ricordi) is a very unusual form

Hope you got something from this... :D
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umberto
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Post by umberto »

beauxyeux wrote:Just my little opinion about this:

Fammi ricordarti doesn't exist in Italian, because "fammi" can only be used in the sense of "fai qualcosa per me"
(Fammi una spremuta; Fammi un sorriso)
In the sentence you were speaking of, the sense was "lascia che io ti ricordi; permettimi di ricordarti"
I had the impression it could be a bad translation from English, but it's just an impression...

"Fatti" as a verb can easily be found as an imperative of the reflexive form "farsi"
Fatti da parte (spostati)
Fatti una ragione (or even Fattene una ragione.... and I don't know how to translate ino English :shock: ; it can be used for example if your boyfriend has let you down and you have to forget him and go on with your life, so fattene una ragione....)

Fatti ricordare (farsi ricordare as I said lascia che ti ricordi) is a very unusual form

Hope you got something from this... :D
Do you think "Fammi ricordarti" is not correct? I think it's gramatically correct, but dreadfully horrible! Probably I would never say that! I'd rather say "ricordami di ricordardi": it has more or less the same meaning and sounds much better. Anyway, you instilled suspicion into my mind... Let's wait for further opinions... :wink: :wink:
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beauxyeux
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Post by beauxyeux »

Hi Umberto,
Well I don't think "Fammi ricordarti" is an existent form in Italian. I would definitely say "Lascia che ti ricordi". Even from a grammar point of view, I am quite sure it's wrong, even if I'm not a teacher of Italian. I could not think of any sentence with Fammi and a second infinitive with a different object.

Fammi pensare (it's me who thinks)
Fammi vedere (it's me who sees)
Fammi cucinare
and so on.

But, of course I'm open to any possibilities... :D

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